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Battlerager: Experiences?
- Thread starter Rechan
- Start date
Just to give an example from our last session, we went through two encounters without a short rest in between (because we had to rush), and I ended up using my inspiring word only once during those two encounters, thanks to the battlerager. And I'm the only leader in the party. I think someone drank a potion in between the encounters, and a few people used second wind, but that was all the healing we needed.
A battlerager makes melee encounters significantly easier, especially when you can create some sort of a bottleneck for the battlerager to defend.
In mixed range/melee encounters, he is still pretty impressive if he can position himself right.
As the leader, I've learned not to bother healing him. Everyone else in the party (often including myself) needs my inspiring words more.
A battlerager makes melee encounters significantly easier, especially when you can create some sort of a bottleneck for the battlerager to defend.
In mixed range/melee encounters, he is still pretty impressive if he can position himself right.
As the leader, I've learned not to bother healing him. Everyone else in the party (often including myself) needs my inspiring words more.
Mustrum_Ridcully
Hero
We've had a one-shot session with four 15 level characters:
- Cleric
- Fighter Battlerager
- Fighter Tempest (Paragon Multiclass Wizard)
- Warlock
I can only say we kicked ass and took names. The battlerager definitely didn't seem to take much actual damage and we were never low on healing. It didn't seem he was threatened at all. My Tempest took a lot more damage, but then I also often used Scorching Burst to mark multiple foes.
FrozenChrono
First Post
Would you guys mind posting the con mods and relevant feats of the battle ragers you're discussing (If you happen to know them)
Someone is going to choose them sooner or later in one of my games and details help me figure out what pieces of the build are powerful and why. Which makes it easier to keep them in the same power range as the rest of the party.
Thanks!
Someone is going to choose them sooner or later in one of my games and details help me figure out what pieces of the build are powerful and why. Which makes it easier to keep them in the same power range as the rest of the party.
Thanks!
Lancelot
Adventurer
No longer permitted in my game, after a rough experience as a DM.
Warforged build, with various other "can't kill me" powers (boundless endurance, from memory?). Yes, the player was min/max-ing a bit, but the choice of race wasn't that relevant. It probably would have been even worse if he was a dwarf.
Here's what I discovered...
1) I can't use minions, unless I metagame it. A ravening horde of greataxe-wielding orcs *cannot* hurt the 'rager. Not possible, by the rules. Unless, of course, they all stand back... drop their axes... and chuck stones (improvised missile weapons) at him. Yes, they can run past the fighter and attack all the softer targets, but there are three problems with this: not all minions should be "smart", it makes for poor narrative (orc barbarians afraid of fighting the warrior), and it's insanely frustrating for the other players.
2) Skirmishers are significantly impacted. A typical skirmisher does trivial damage to a 'rager once it's marked. Something like a panther will do 0-3 damage on a hit unless it can move away and charge every round. That provokes, which means it may not even be able to get away... and will be taking double attacks even if it does.
3) Soldiers become frustrating. The 'rager has more difficulty hitting them... but they can barely scratch the 'rager in return. Fights end up longer, which diminishes the fun.
4) The thing that convinced me to ban the 'rager for the moment was a melee solo. Big Bad Boss. Solo, three levels higher than the party. It was tough enough that it could do about a third of any PC's hp in damage in any given round (maybe more, if it critted or action pointed). But against the 'rager, it was a joke. It took 5 rounds (including action points) to take him to bloodied, and then he dropped boundless endurance (...assuming this is the power that gives regeneration while bloodied; don't have my books on me). Now it needed to hit *every* round (or score several crits) simply to keep up with 'rager. Forget any healing he might be receiving... forget any effect the other PCs are having at all... the 'rager would eventually have worn it down simply on the pure math of the thing.
Targeting the other PCs and "showing" the player how his PC is a poor defender isn't an option for me. Why punish the other players because the 'rager is nigh-unkillable? Meta-gaming lots of artillery (or minions who throw stones) is frustrating. Yes, I could hand-craft every encounter to ensure that the 'rager is being targeted by a brute, and skimishers are targeting the other PCs... but this gets artificial after a while. Fights drag on longer. And you cannot convince me that it's balanced by giving up +1 to hit.
I'll caveat by saying I love 4e, and I allow every other option available in PH, Martial Power, etc. Other DMs and players may be enjoying the 'rager in their games. But the 'rager is broken in mine, because it reduced the number of options that I could apply to keep the game challenging and fun.
Warforged build, with various other "can't kill me" powers (boundless endurance, from memory?). Yes, the player was min/max-ing a bit, but the choice of race wasn't that relevant. It probably would have been even worse if he was a dwarf.
Here's what I discovered...
1) I can't use minions, unless I metagame it. A ravening horde of greataxe-wielding orcs *cannot* hurt the 'rager. Not possible, by the rules. Unless, of course, they all stand back... drop their axes... and chuck stones (improvised missile weapons) at him. Yes, they can run past the fighter and attack all the softer targets, but there are three problems with this: not all minions should be "smart", it makes for poor narrative (orc barbarians afraid of fighting the warrior), and it's insanely frustrating for the other players.
2) Skirmishers are significantly impacted. A typical skirmisher does trivial damage to a 'rager once it's marked. Something like a panther will do 0-3 damage on a hit unless it can move away and charge every round. That provokes, which means it may not even be able to get away... and will be taking double attacks even if it does.
3) Soldiers become frustrating. The 'rager has more difficulty hitting them... but they can barely scratch the 'rager in return. Fights end up longer, which diminishes the fun.
4) The thing that convinced me to ban the 'rager for the moment was a melee solo. Big Bad Boss. Solo, three levels higher than the party. It was tough enough that it could do about a third of any PC's hp in damage in any given round (maybe more, if it critted or action pointed). But against the 'rager, it was a joke. It took 5 rounds (including action points) to take him to bloodied, and then he dropped boundless endurance (...assuming this is the power that gives regeneration while bloodied; don't have my books on me). Now it needed to hit *every* round (or score several crits) simply to keep up with 'rager. Forget any healing he might be receiving... forget any effect the other PCs are having at all... the 'rager would eventually have worn it down simply on the pure math of the thing.
Targeting the other PCs and "showing" the player how his PC is a poor defender isn't an option for me. Why punish the other players because the 'rager is nigh-unkillable? Meta-gaming lots of artillery (or minions who throw stones) is frustrating. Yes, I could hand-craft every encounter to ensure that the 'rager is being targeted by a brute, and skimishers are targeting the other PCs... but this gets artificial after a while. Fights drag on longer. And you cannot convince me that it's balanced by giving up +1 to hit.
I'll caveat by saying I love 4e, and I allow every other option available in PH, Martial Power, etc. Other DMs and players may be enjoying the 'rager in their games. But the 'rager is broken in mine, because it reduced the number of options that I could apply to keep the game challenging and fun.
Agree with everything you've said, and I do not allow battleragers in my game for the very same reasons.
I tried the battlerager for a whole session, and changed my fighter to it. I had a 16 con and scale armor.
After playing with it for the session, I voluntarily went back...the build was way way better than the standard fighter build. Minions couldn't touch me, my durability was doubled in most fights, I felt unstoppable.
Its not allowed in my new game that's for sure.
After playing with it for the session, I voluntarily went back...the build was way way better than the standard fighter build. Minions couldn't touch me, my durability was doubled in most fights, I felt unstoppable.
Its not allowed in my new game that's for sure.
nittanytbone
First Post
Has anyone actually played a Battlerager above level 5 or so around here?
I think that the Temp HP gained will not scale as quickly as monster damage. For example, in upper heroic, a character that started with 16 CON will be up to 18 due to the level 4 and 8 bumps. That means that they'll get 4 temp HP when they get smacked in melee.
Orc Warriors do 6 HP damage (so minions can touch him now). The Displacer Beast (lvl 9 skirmisher) does 1d6+4, 1d6+4, and 1d10+4 -- so the rager only "sops up" about 1/2 of the damage. Brutes and Soldiers do far more damage.
I think that in upper heroic or paragon the rager's temp HP may not be all they are cracked up to be, whereas +1 to hit is always nice -- and those PHB-fighters can still get Invigorating powers for a few temp HP from time to time.
I think that the Temp HP gained will not scale as quickly as monster damage. For example, in upper heroic, a character that started with 16 CON will be up to 18 due to the level 4 and 8 bumps. That means that they'll get 4 temp HP when they get smacked in melee.
Orc Warriors do 6 HP damage (so minions can touch him now). The Displacer Beast (lvl 9 skirmisher) does 1d6+4, 1d6+4, and 1d10+4 -- so the rager only "sops up" about 1/2 of the damage. Brutes and Soldiers do far more damage.
I think that in upper heroic or paragon the rager's temp HP may not be all they are cracked up to be, whereas +1 to hit is always nice -- and those PHB-fighters can still get Invigorating powers for a few temp HP from time to time.
FireLance
Legend
Haven't actually played in a game with one, so I would like to get views from those who have:
If the battlerager only got temporary hit points from being hit by close and melee powers once per round (he may get temporary hit points from invigorating powers and stack them with existing temporary hit points as normal), would it be enough to balance the battlerager, or would the balance still be off?
If the battlerager only got temporary hit points from being hit by close and melee powers once per round (he may get temporary hit points from invigorating powers and stack them with existing temporary hit points as normal), would it be enough to balance the battlerager, or would the balance still be off?
Nail
First Post
I currently play a human BRV fighter (he's now level 2).
It's been fun to play, and I know I'm not over-shadowing the other PCs in the party (doing so would be the definition of "over-powered"). I'm up in front taking the hits - where no other PC really wants to be - while everyone else has their fun beating the snot out of the competition. I'm doing the "fighter thang".
Unkillable? Hardly. Last meeting my BRV Ftr was dropped, and that was *after* things like using solid tactics, second wind, the Comeback Strike daily, and a Healing Word. Have the DMs that are having trouble never heard of controllers and artillery? There's no "meta-gaming" necessary.
It's been fun to play, and I know I'm not over-shadowing the other PCs in the party (doing so would be the definition of "over-powered"). I'm up in front taking the hits - where no other PC really wants to be - while everyone else has their fun beating the snot out of the competition. I'm doing the "fighter thang".
Unkillable? Hardly. Last meeting my BRV Ftr was dropped, and that was *after* things like using solid tactics, second wind, the Comeback Strike daily, and a Healing Word. Have the DMs that are having trouble never heard of controllers and artillery? There's no "meta-gaming" necessary.
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