Battlerager: Experiences?

[Nail]

I don't [know] how much that type of DM style affects the BRV build pushing it towards more or less overall power.

Very true. Playstyle varies widely, and perceptions of power vary even more widely than that.

Still, saving the party healing surges (per day) is ...no big deal, IMO. Sure a DM that throws 6 encounters per day at a party will find BRV Ftrs save more Healing Surges by the end of the day...but so what?

Seriously. Does it all boil down to Healing Surges?

There are lots and lots and lots (did I mention "lots"?) of ways for the PCs to feel the pressure, and resource management is only one type of pressure the DM can bring to bear. And even if we restrict our discussion of "pressure" (i.e. being challenged) to hp, there are still lots of ways to apply pressure there besides how many healing surges you have per day.

By "lots" I don't mean two. I mean "very close to unlimited numbers of ways".

I think it's also worth noting again Nail is a Human Fighter, not a Dwarf or Dragonborn enjoying a higher Con bonus or access to some BRV-happy feats.

Yup. For what it's worth I chose human for my fighter before Martial Power came out. Later our DM (DrSpunj!) graciously allowed us to re-build using MP if we wanted to.

 

[Kraydak]

For what it's worth, BRV is at its best not for adventures with many (relatively easy) encounters, but for adventures with few, hard encounters.

Running out of healing surges across a day is both a whole lot harder (especially for a con-based fighter) and a whole lot less worrisome (just rest up) than running out of healing surge *triggers* in a single hard encounter (where the consequences are brutal).

Note also that going dwarf isn't that bad, damage-output-wise, in hard fights where you get nearly HS-trigger tapped. In that case, Second Wind gets used, and dwarves pick up an effective extra standard action over non-dwarves. It probably won't fully make up for the -1 STR (compared to STR races, exact details depend on fight length and DWT usage/tier), but it will close the gap a lot.

So, basically, in easy fights, BRV isn't worth that much (and people will only remember your misses) and in hard fights, BR dwarves shine (and people will remember your astounding durability).

 

[Pickles JG]

At last: vindication!

As I said up-thread, the difference between a BRV-build and a WT-build may be +3...in fact, I'd argue that such a thing is often th' case.

Only a 16 Str, a low Prof weapon, and no WT = -3 to hit.

That said: the DPR can actually be almost the same. As we've also said, DPR may not accurately measure effectiveness of a fighter.

I have been playing a LFR Dwarf fighter since August with 16 STR CON & WIS. He is a Hammer user - Dwarven weapon training makes this better than a sword since the advent of Superior Hammers. I may not have been optimised but I never felt marginalised with solid damage & a lot of robustness.

For me BRV is a straight -1 to hit for 3 temps or 4 with a feat.

This is more marginal than I would have thought - for LFR is always 3 fights +/-1 so healing surges are not at a major premium when you have 12. I do not think the +2 damage sometimes for wearing chain would be worth the -2 AC I'd get (Dwarves like plate).
I have been missing a fair bit in the higehr level adventures recently so -1 to hit may be into the less fun area.
However at 8th I think the huge durability I get from BRV & Dwarven Stoneblood would mean I am so robust I ought to look to more offense - so Brash Strike & maybe chain. Brash strike at 11th is mitigated by Uncanny Dodge anyway.

Hmm not sure where I am going here - probably that while I do not like BRV I am not as convinced as I once was it is busted in 3 fights a day. As yet I have not seen a really efficient one in play yet though (its to me once I level )

 

[Doctor Proctor]

One thing that at times seems to be overlooked is that there's more to hitting than just damage. A missed attack might be an encounter power with a nasty effect line, or a non-reliable daily. In those cases, the overall effect on the fight will be much greater than the extra 5% chance to hit might seem to be at first. Plus, as others have pointed out, many BRV Fighters will be sacrificing more than just the WT bonus when it comes to their to-hit bonus.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Plus, as others have pointed out, many BRV Fighters will be sacrificing more than just the WT bonus when it comes to their to-hit bonus.

This line of thinking would seem to be suggesting that a con-focused fighter prior to the introduction of battlerager should be awful. The simple fact of the matter is that they were not.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

This line of thinking would seem to be suggesting that a con-focused fighter prior to the introduction of battlerager should be awful. The simple fact of the matter is that they were not.

There are a lot of BRV Fighters that I've seen that use the Chain and an Axe or a Hammer because apparently the damage calculations work out the same as if they were a WT Fighter in heavy armor using a +3 weapon. My point was that this idea DOES NOT take into account that while damage output will be the same, they will be missing 15% more frequently when it comes to firing off important powers. That's all.

 

[DrSpunj]

My point was that this idea DOES NOT take into account that while damage output will be the same, they will be missing 15% more frequently when it comes to firing off important powers.

Which I think is pretty important because in 3e when you missed as a Fighter, well, you just missed. It was very uncommon, if not outright rare, that any particular combat or effect really hinged on any individual swing.

In 4e, IME, whether any PC lands an Encounter power or a Daily can really turn the tide of battle (granted my PCs are only lvl 3 so they don't have a lot of powers to use!). The loss of missing such a power is felt more keenly, I think, and therefore remembered all the more by those who look back over their experiences playing a BRV Fighter and report they're missing too much. At least with a Fighter their frequently reliable dailies mitigate this to some extent.

 

[Pickles JG]

In 4e, IME, whether any PC lands an Encounter power or a Daily can really turn the tide of battle (granted my PCs are only lvl 3 so they don't have a lot of powers to use!). The loss of missing such a power is felt more keenly, I think, and therefore remembered all the more by those who look back over their experiences playing a BRV Fighter and report they're missing too much. At least with a Fighter their frequently reliable dailies mitigate this to some extent.

Reliable dailies help as do the "aura" dailies that do not need rolls - Rain of Steel &c. My encounter powers are mostly multitarget for marking as much as for anything else - they could stand to hit more but at least it's several rolls. At-wills suffer a little but not combat challenge so much as a 16 WIS dwarf with Devoted Challenge gets +3 to hit & damage on these as well as the +3 to hit on OAs. At 11th Hammer Rhythmn will take up some more of the slack.

 

[MwaO]

I'm currently playing something a little off the beaten path - an Eladrin Battlerager in LFR. Str 16, Con 14, Dex 15, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 8. He uses an Urgrosh and mostly dual-strike type actions. He's also going to qualify for Polearm Momentum at 4th(and the Gladiator feat that lets him shift 2 with Footwork Lure - he'll move to where he can flank by shifting two squares, then doing Footwork Lure - person ends up prone)

For the most part, he's been extremely effective - he's got some striker qualities to him - Dual Strike, because he adds +4 damage per swing when he has temps, means he does a lot of damage, almost as much as a higher Str/Con character doing Brash Strike. Yet the Battlerager gives him a little more staying power than normal.

Not that it helped when he got swatted by two drakes, though as a 1st level character...even an 18 Con Fighter(non-battlerager) would have gone down at that point...