Battlerager: Experiences?

[Mengu]

Round 1:

• Nail hit with 3 ranged attacks plus ongoing Poison 5 plus blinded (25 hp damage) Note that ranged and ongoing damage don’t grant THP.

Ouch. Nail got nailed.

20 temp HP's don't seem like a lot (and I believe is a bit below average for the typical encounter), but that saves you about 2 healing surges per encounter. In 5 encounters, that's 10 healing surges, more than what most characters start out with.

 

[DrSpunj]

Ouch. Nail got nailed.

Yep! <cackles with evil DM glee>

I don't know that Nail believes me but this encounter was not designed with any particular PC in mind. The party just hit 3rd level after this encounter and I've been purposefully trying to vary the types of encounters, terrain effects, condition effects, etc. with every battle to get a better feel for 4e and my party's/player's strengths.

Here the party was hiking through the desert about a day out from their base city/outpost, trying to figure out a path to some ruins recently spotted by others. I used Skeleton Key Games Desert Bluff tiles for the encounter, telling the party as I laid them out that the bluffs were roughly 20' higher than the ground and were rough but slippery due to their sandy-rocky make-up (Climb DC 20).

The 5 PCs arranged themselves (somewhat predictably) with Nail in the middle of the front line flanked by the two Leaders, with the Ranger & Wizard in the second row. I think they were all separated by a space or two.

The Ranger & Cleric made their Perception checks for the surprise round but the Kruthik Spitter (Lvl 4 Controller using a Blinding Spit single target attack swiped from the Goblin Hexer and adjusted for level) struck the Cleric blind first thing. Nail didn't get to act before the Spitter struck him blind as well in the first full round of combat. Being in the middle of the front line meant he was also targeted by both the Kruthik Adults with their Toxic Spike recharging range attacks along with the Leaders (which bloodied the still-blind Cleric, btw!).

Couple that with the 3 Young & 3 Hatchlings that dug their way out of the ground & bluffs to flank the party and, well, Nail just wasn't able to do much of his Defendery stuff for the first several rounds. For the 1st half of combat he was the PC right in front of the Spitter up on the bluff which wasn't targeted by any PC attacks until most all of the other Kruthiks were taken out. More often than not Nail was the target of that blinding attack, until he was no longer the easiest target out in front of the rest of the party members (or perceived as the biggest threat by the slightly more intelligent Spitter, Int = 5).

20 temp HP's don't seem like a lot (and I believe is a bit below average for the typical encounter), but that saves you about 2 healing surges per encounter. In 5 encounters, that's 10 healing surges, more than what most characters start out with.

Right! Nail definitely did his job IMO because the other party members were not able to take as much damage as he did. Even if the blindness kept him from doing much damage, he was able to swing blindly and mark something most every round which strongly dictated the Kruthik's actions & targets on their turns.

The other players had a blast, as did I, but I can't help feeling Nail wasn't nearly as happy with this encounter as he's been with others. With only a single mob for the first half of combat able to make a blindness attack coupled with two Leaders I didn't expect the blindness condition to hit very often (but my d20s apparently hated Nail with a vengeance, though I rolled 1s on two or three occasions against the Cleric), that Nail would be the target of most all of the Spitter's attacks (but it made the most sense round after round IMO) or that the party would fail what really seemed like 3/4 of their save rolls, even with some Leader bonuses & extra saves happening at least a few times.

In a nutshell, I haven't had the chance to see Nail's BRV fighter in the same game as a non-BRV fighter build, but I don't think Nail's current fighter is at all over-powered. Effective, absolutely, but not overpowered against several different encounter situations we've played over the last several sessions. Now, I haven't been using Elites much (see the Grindspace prevention thread in this forum) and they haven't fought a Solo yet where at least a few DMs or players have had issues with the BRV build. Maybe soon we can test that, Nail!

 

[Nail]

Ouch. Nail got nailed.

That, as they say, "is his job".

20 temp HP's don't seem like a lot...

Consider that none of them happened in the first half of combat, and half of them happened the last round of combat, when the outcome was already decided.

So no: 20 THPs isn't much.

You'll also note all the misses of Nail's attacks. (Blindness 4 out of 6 rounds sucks.) For a few of them an extra +2 (high prof. weapon, and Weapon Talent) might have put them over the edge. <shrug> Jus' sayin'.

 

[Mengu]

Now, I haven't been using Elites much (see the Grindspace prevention thread in this forum) and they haven't fought a Solo yet where at least a few DMs or players have had issues with the BRV build. Maybe soon we can test that, Nail!

Actualy, equivalent or lower level melee monsters (especially minions and soldiers) are where the Battlerager build shines. High level Brutes and Elites can punch through the battlerager temp hit points more easily. The battlerager's bane is range attackers that immobilize, slow, daze, etc.

And I think you guys are underestimating the 20 HP's. If he had been down an extra 20 HP's at the end of the battle, that would have cost 2 more healing surges to heal. Over 4 or 5 such encounters, that adds up to 8 or 10 healing surges. A weapon talent fighter would run out of surges way before that.

I'm not sure what your play style is, if you typically have only 1 encounter a day this might not be such a big deal. But in my games going through 5 or 6 combat encounters in one adventuring day is not unusual.

 

[Nail]

I'm not sure what your play style is, if you typically have only 1 encounter a day this might not be such a big deal. But in my games going through 5 or 6 combat encounters in one adventuring day is not unusual.

In each of my 3 games (separate groups), we've yet to go more than 3 encounters per day. FYI, YMMV.

 

[Mengu]

In each of my 3 games (separate groups), we've yet to go more than 3 encounters per day. FYI, YMMV.

I understand, that does change perceptions a bit. That's why I said it depends on playstyle. Our group thinks Durable is an excellent feat (especially the 16 wisdom paladin), while I know other groups who look at it and go, what's this thing for?

And that's why I decided in our group a level 3 battlerager preventing 100+ hit points of damage throughout a day would be broken, compared to the weapon talent fighter.

 

[DrSpunj]

In each of my 3 games (separate groups), we've yet to go more than 3 encounters per day. FYI, YMMV.

And I can say pretty easily now that I don't expect it to ever be much more than that.

I don't want to take time preparing a combat encounter, laying it out at the table and playing through it if it isn't challenging. Now I understand that's a loosely defined term that is going to be different for just about every player & DM so I'll clarify a bit how I interpret it.

If there isn't much threat to the party that one or more characters could drop (by going unconscious & dying or getting kidnapped by a large beastie) or there isn't something about this battle that might or will affect the next in a series (typically in a single day) then I don't think the party is all that challenged, and I don't think my players find it all that fun. I know I don't want to spend any of our precious time (we try to meet once every 2 weeks for 4 hrs) grinding through lower level mobs & minions in a 3e-skewed attempt to whittle away at Daily Powers, Healing Surges & Action Points.

Again, referring to the Grindspace thread here, I usually put together combats that are at or above the party's level tending to go with more mobs close to the party's level rather than fewer higher level mobs.

This encounter was designed as a "this is the only encounter you'll have today so feel free to pull out all the stops" scenario. I laid that out at the beginning of the session when the mission was "find a way to the ruins and report back ASAP, don't enter then ruins, you'll do that later when the NPC is free to accompany you" and the players agreed to leave 2 PCs behind since their players couldn't make the session.

Last night I asked for feedback and most everyone expressed a lot of happiness with the "our back frequently seems to be up against the wall, the battle could go either way" tenseness that we've had with the last several combat encounters (especially since they've pulled through essentially every time which I'm sure helps ). I'm very happy to hear that and feel comfortable with planning future encounters in a similar manner. Likely 1 or 2 "hard" encounters in a day where the XP budget is 3 or 4 levels above the party or 2-3 "moderate" encounters in a day where the XP budget is at party level or 1-2 levels above. In these situations the party can't typically easily "go nova" unless they're positive they're safe to do so, and I'm generally not that helpful about telling them "it's okay to nova, go ahead" so they've really been working hard to get the job done and not waste those resources like APs, Dailies, etc.

So, FWIW and to bring this back to relevance (hopefully), I don't how much that type of DM style affects the BRV build pushing it towards more or less overall power. Again, the party just hit 3rd level so as more temporary HP stacking powers or feats come into play I could change my opinion. I think it's also worth noting again Nail is a Human Fighter, not a Dwarf or Dragonborn enjoying a higher Con bonus or access to some BRV-happy feats.

Thanks

 

[Mengu]

I don't want to take time preparing a combat encounter, laying it out at the table and playing through it if it isn't challenging.

I appreciate your position, and in one of our games, our DM's thoughts are exactly in those lines. He is not happy with an encounter unless he can bloody majority of the party and knock one or two people unconscious.

In my game, I take a slightly different approach. It's not necessarily the combat that needs to be challenging, it's the overall adventuring day that needs to be challenging. An easy fight at the beginning of the day, knowing they'll have to fight many more enemies throughout the day forces people to consider their best options for dealing with the immediate threat very carefully. One character might decide despite the fight not looking too hard, they will use a daily power to prevent counter attacks and get through the fight with barely a scratch, whereas conserving dailies might cost more healing surges.

We also only get to play 5 hours, twice a month, so I'm not too keen on too much combat. But easier combats go faster. And in 5 hours, I can (on a good day) squeeze in 3 combat encounters. Of course, each encounter has to be exciting and different in some way.

Sometimes the objective might be to dispatch the enemies quickly before they can raise an alarm. This is a perfect setup for a level-2 encounter with a few skirmishers and minions. Maybe they are diving through water to get to and underground cave, but a tentacled beast is blocking their way, and they must swim by it or kill it before they run out of breath, but it keeps grabbing one or two people at a time. This can be a great level-1 solo encounter.

Lower level encounters can still be fun, and can challenge the PC's in other ways than the simple threat of death.

 

[darkwing]

I've tried a battlerager in one session. So far, I feel like I miss too much. This is a combination of dwarf not getting str bonus and only getting 16 str to get 18 con, using a hammer instead of a heavy blade, and not getting the fighter weapon talent. So, all these things together, which are battlerager focused, make it less fun in the I want my powers to connect department.

 

[Nail]

I've tried a battlerager in one session. So far, I feel like I miss too much. This is a combination of dwarf not getting str bonus and only getting 16 str to get 18 con, using a hammer instead of a heavy blade, and not getting the fighter weapon talent. So, all these things together, which are battlerager focused, make it less fun in the I want my powers to connect department.

At last: vindication!

As I said up-thread, the difference between a BRV-build and a WT-build may be +3...in fact, I'd argue that such a thing is often th' case.

Only a 16 Str, a low Prof weapon, and no WT = -3 to hit.

That said: the DPR can actually be almost the same. As we've also said, DPR may not accurately measure effectiveness of a fighter.