Battlestar Galactica:Season 2; Part 4 NSCR/8.5.05

[WizarDru]

Hah! FLAWLESS VICTORY!

About Kara, anyways.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Hah! FLAWLESS VICTORY!

About Kara, anyways.

Why do I smell a conspiracy between WizarDru and Dravot? That was a little too convenient...

Actually that all does make perfectly good sense, especially when talking about the needs of a TV show. I just accept the idea that Caprica City is in pretty decent shape for a major city following a nuclear holocaust, that somehow Starbuck and Apollo can and will do anything important, and that Starbucks car is a Hummer, the guns look like real Earth guns of today etc. etc.

Face it, this show is on SciFi Channel, their budget will be limited. Spend the money on one more episode, rather than trying to fabricate amazing sets and some unique vehicles and weapons.

 

[dravot]

Why do I smell a conspiracy between WizarDru and Dravot? That was a little too convenient...

Sir, your insinuation wounds me deeply.

Actually that all does make perfectly good sense, especially when talking about the needs of a TV show. I just accept the idea that Caprica City is in pretty decent shape for a major city following a nuclear holocaust, that somehow Starbuck and Apollo can and will do anything important, and that Starbucks car is a Hummer, the guns look like real Earth guns of today etc. etc.

Face it, this show is on SciFi Channel, their budget will be limited. Spend the money on one more episode, rather than trying to fabricate amazing sets and some unique vehicles and weapons.

I said this last year, but had to wait for Ron to validate my assessment.

 

[WizarDru]

Why do I smell a conspiracy between WizarDru and Dravot? That was a little too convenient...

We've had conversations about this sort of thing before...and this very same topic was discussed heavily by JMS during the filming of Babylon 5. There are realities that need to be addressed in the making of a show like this. The same issues applied there as here. For that matter, the same applies to lots of shows, where realism must needs be sacrificed (to varying degrees) for the benefit of brevity, story impact and all the other reasons. A show like CSI, ER or even Law & Order, for example. It's pretty funny that Ron Moore just updated his blog with the exact same thing I said, not long after I said it.

But, you know...I'm Wile E. Coyote...Super GENIUS!

 

[dravot]

Oh, and one other piece of insight from Ron Moore's blog, talking about Tigh's poor choices so far this season:

Q: "I'm curious as to what characters we are supposed to like at this point in the second season. Adama, Roslin, the XO, and Apollo have all been disappointments. Adama has been a non-factor due to his injury but is at the root of the martial law problem along with Roslin since they begin working at cross purposes. Roslin has turned into this Jim Jones/David Koresh type figure and added a drug addiction to it which I find off putting. The XO can't make a good decision (other than to go back to Kobol) and has turned into more of an alcoholic than ever. He's let his wife manipulate him for worse as well. Apollo seems like an ingrateful whelp with a chip on his shoulder, going against both the military and his father. Starbuck hasn't been much better, going against Adama and then tooling around Caprica reliving her old life and playing ball games. Which character has shown any redeeming values this season?"

It's up to you to decide who you like and who you don't. Personally, I like all of them. I like their flaws and I like their virtues, and for me, it's not a matter of finding redemption for anyone as much as it is a matter of allowing each character to be true to who and what they are and finding the most emotionally truthful storyline for them each week.

Sure, Tigh's made bad decisions and he'll likely make more, but isn't it interesting how all the good he did last season, all the good decisions he made, are suddenly overshadowed by the few bad choices he made this season? Tigh saved the entire ship during the miniseries, held the crew together through the nightmare of "33", located the lost fleet in "Scattered" and knew how to defeat the Centurion boarding party in "Valley of Darkness," but now that he's made a few bad calls (and some were really bad) he's called a worthless loser. What does that say about the nature of heroism? Does it mean that bestowing the title of Hero is less about discerning the intrinsic nature of a man than it is simply another example of the old game of "Yeah, but what have you done for me lately?" We love you today, but if you screw up tomorrow, you're history. Maybe that's only fair. Maybe that's the way it's supposed to work. Maybe. Again, it's up to you to decide, you're the audience. Me, I love Tigh and Starbuck and all of'em. Warts and all.

 

[TanisFrey]

One thing to take into consideration is the needs of a televison show and cinematic presentation versus totally consistent reality; I think we can't read too much into the visuals from the show, for example. I don't think Baltar's house was hit by the result of a nuclear explosion, unless Baltar received some form of radiation treatment I missed. It could have just been a mass driven projectile; the force of a nuclear weapon without the radiation. The ecosystem seems pretty unharmed by the whole thing, really....but again, it's expensive to represent the world otherwise. The same applies to Starbuck's competence value - she's central to a lot of conflicts and skills because it's much easier for the writers to create and audience to follow if they use the same viewpoint characters. They didn't use Starbuck because she was the best sniper...they used her because it was much easier to use her in 'Colonial Day' than another minor character we were unfamiliar with.

I really rather like Starbuck as a character. She's represented as uncompromising and unhappy...but all on her own terms. She is a mark of how far we've come in that her gender isn't really considered a factor in whethers she's believable as a character (or unbelievable, depending on your feelings).

I think the show has to make concessions (as all shows do) in the absence of an infinite budget and infinite time to develop the story. This sometimes leads to inconsistincies that only we die-hards actually notice. And that's OK in my book.

IF we look at US naval history.... When Air Craft carriers were first induced into the fleet, Congress Debated for awhile about whom could Comand the ship. The concern was that Battle ship Comanders would domaite the assiments and run the ship like a Battle Ship. Naval air core officers said that new taticts needed to be developled for this new class of ship. Congress finley decided that only avaitors could comand air craft carriers. The higher ranking avaitors had to start to learn how to manover large ships.

So I find it perfectly reasonable that the highter ranking pilots the Battle Star have to learn new functions. So that they will be able to run the ship in the future when take over new poistions in the fleet.

 

[Elf Witch]

Interesting info on Starbuck's character from Ron Moore's <a href="http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/07/index.html#a000059">BSG Blog</a>

With all due respect to Ron Moore my dislike of Starbuck has nothing to do with her being a female. And my feeling of hey she is way to good at everything would not be dimished if she were a male.

On the old BSG Apollo and Starbuck did do a lot of things but most of it made sense to their training. We never saw Starbuck as a sniper or as an intergator and in the murder mystery the sleuths were Apollo and Boomer.

As a woman I want to see strong female leads. I like woman who can kick butt and take names. But IMO she does not come of a strong woman she comes across as a know it all jerkwho is just so messed up in the head. So basically we get this message that strong woman are just messed up in the head.

On the old BSG Sheba could fly and fight as well as any man and she did not have to be a ball breaking b**ch to accomplish this.

 

[WizarDru]

As a woman I want to see strong female leads. I like woman who can kick butt and take names. But IMO she does not come of a strong woman she comes across as a know it all jerkwho is just so messed up in the head. So basically we get this message that strong woman are just messed up in the head.

So you don't think there's room for a spectrum of strong female characters? How do you feel about Roslin, Boomer, Dualla and Callie, among others? Every single character on the show has issues of one sort or another. Adama clearly is 'messed up in the head' in that he still has emotional issues to work out. Tigh clearly has them by the truckload. Apollo comes across as just about as good a pilot as Starbuck, except he also gets to be a diplomat, negotiator and accomplished leader (and while Starbuck can lead, she's not the best at it, by far).

I mean, I can understand not liking her...she's a bitter pill to swallow at times; but she certainly isn't any more messed up in the head than anyone else in the show, IMHO.

As for roles, in the original series, Apollo and Starbuck also did lots of non-standard duties. They acted as security, marines, transport pilots, diplomats, were champion Triad players, interrogators, ran sensor runs (man those ships could do anything), trade negotiators (no one else in the fleet is more qualified to purchase supplies?) and stealth operatives ala Guns of Navarrone. So I'm willing to let a lot slide in that regard.

 

[Elf Witch]

So you don't think there's room for a spectrum of strong female characters? How do you feel about Roslin, Boomer, Dualla and Callie, among others? Every single character on the show has issues of one sort or another. Adama clearly is 'messed up in the head' in that he still has emotional issues to work out. Tigh clearly has them by the truckload. Apollo comes across as just about as good a pilot as Starbuck, except he also gets to be a diplomat, negotiator and accomplished leader (and while Starbuck can lead, she's not the best at it, by far).

I mean, I can understand not liking her...she's a bitter pill to swallow at times; but she certainly isn't any more messed up in the head than anyone else in the show, IMHO.

As for roles, in the original series, Apollo and Starbuck also did lots of non-standard duties. They acted as security, marines, transport pilots, diplomats, were champion Triad players, interrogators, ran sensor runs (man those ships could do anything), trade negotiators (no one else in the fleet is more qualified to purchase supplies?) and stealth operatives ala Guns of Navarrone. So I'm willing to let a lot slide in that regard.

As I have said before I think that they have a tendency to go overboard on all the flaws for the characters. It is almost like they sat down with the a book of mental illnesses and picked one for each character. :\

Sometimes I feel if this is the best humanity has to offer then maybe the cyclons are right and they should be wiped out. But then someone will do something amazing like Lee helping the President escape or even Starbuck taking a chance to follow her beliefs and go retrieve the arrow of Apollo.

As for the old show there were two types of security council and warriors the warriors defended the Galatcia only. They were marines because the ship had no ground forces they were forced to assume that task because of need.As for bring transport pilots well it was said in the first episode that many shuttle pilots had been lost in the attack on Correlion so Viper piolts had to help fill in the losses. I can go on and on and debate each one and the reasons it made sense for them to be doing the job. But the real reason was they were the main heroes of the show and that is why they did it. But I never felt that say Starbuck was better at everything than say Apollo or Boomer or Sheba.

As for Starbuck yes I don't like the character she grates on me. And if a male was playing the character the same way it would grate on me as well.

I do have some issues though about double standards with the character. The male Starbuck could have sex all he wanted and no one judged him. Thrace has sex and it is called a mistake she is screwing up. She is judged to be promiscuous. Maybe she just likes sex. Why does it have to be a character flaw. Do people consider it a character flaw in James Bond.

 

[WizarDru]

As for the old show there were two types of security council and warriors the warriors defended the Galatcia only. They were marines because the ship had no ground forces they were forced to assume that task because of need.As for bring transport pilots well it was said in the first episode that many shuttle pilots had been lost in the attack on Correlion so Viper piolts had to help fill in the losses.

It just seems terribly silly to me, from a realism standpoint that of all mankind's survivors, there was virtually no civilian pilots who survived or could be trained. The same situation applies with medical doctors on the current series. At least we've finally identified some medics. I find it real hard to believe that the Galactica didn't have a single merchant or trade negotiator, but that's the sort of handwaving I was talking about above. You just have to accept that it's better if we see main character do this stuff.

As for Starbuck yes I don't like the character she grates on me. And if a male was playing the character the same way it would grate on me as well.

Point taken.

I do have some issues though about double standards with the character. The male Starbuck could have sex all he wanted and no one judged him. Thrace has sex and it is called a mistake she is screwing up. She is judged to be promiscuous. Maybe she just likes sex. Why does it have to be a character flaw. Do people consider it a character flaw in James Bond.

Sean Connery sure did. That was one of the reasons he quit the role.

I think, though, that you're comparing apples to oranges. For one, they were two different kind of shows (the former a star wars knockoff with more of a family orientation, the latter a very adult drama). Kara isn't all women and acceptable standards were much different in 1978 than in 2005. Duala has had sex, which by the way she initiated pretty forcefully, and no one's describing that as a mistake. Every other pairing on the show has presented itself badly; tyrol and boomer, gauis and six, tigh and his wife, helo and boomer among others all have been messed up. If anything, the show is saying people who have sex IN GENERAL end up goofy, not just women. Heck, Kara is currently on track to have the series first NORMAL relationship.