D&D 5E Beast master wants to use pet to get +5 to passive perception

[JiffyPopTart]

Passive skills are used when the DM wants to be sneaking about things the players/PCs wouldn't know about. Day three would not use passive perception. At that point they are actively looking for the goblins they know are coming and would be rolling their perception skill.

The ridiculous situation is created by passive skills just existing. The passive number is just an average of rolls over a long period of time, and would not at all be representative of what is happening at the time the goblins are sneaking in. It's a ridiculous situation from the very first time it is used, which is why I ditch passive skill checks.

Note: I have a house rule in my game that says an active perception skill check has a minimum result of 1 better than a passive score. This is inspired by Torg where giving up your action to defend always results in at least +1 to your defenses.

***

Here we just disagree on a fundamental level. In my game a character keeping watch while the party sleeps isn't intently staring off into the distance like a sniper looking for a target for a solid block of time. They are awake when others are asleep, maybe doing a short patrol around the periphery, keeping the fire fed, mending a hole a sock, playing solitaire, or any number of other things. Their Passive Perception score is a level of "attention" they are able to pay to the world around them on a regular basis without switching to sniper targeting focus mode (which is an active Perception check in my mind).

I can't disagree more that Passive Perception is bad design, I think it's a good design to allow for characters to have a "normal" level of senses with a "heightened" level available in different circumstances.

You can try it yourself. Go outside and listen intensely to the sounds you hear. Pay hyper attention to each and every star, bug buzz, breeze, or smell. See how long you can do this before your brain says "I need a break" and you start thinking of candy bars or the Superb Owl or whatever.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

We know tools can grant advantage on ability checks when situationally appropriate. I have no issues with tools being alive / living things counting as tools. So I can parse the mechanic as "The guard uses her [Trained Dog] tool to gain advantage during watch tonight."

Excuse me a second, guys. Feeding my lizard picks.

 

[Maxperson]

Note: I have a house rule in my game that says an active perception skill check has a minimum result of 1 better than a passive score. This is inspired by Torg where giving up your action to defend always results in at least +1 to your defenses.

***

Here we just disagree on a fundamental level. In my game a character keeping watch while the party sleeps isn't intently staring off into the distance like a sniper looking for a target for a solid block of time. They are awake when others are asleep, maybe doing a short patrol around the periphery, keeping the fire fed, mending a hole a sock, playing solitaire, or any number of other things. Their Passive Perception score is a level of "attention" they are able to pay to the world around them on a regular basis without switching to sniper targeting focus mode (which is an active Perception check in my mind).

I can't disagree more that Passive Perception is bad design, I think it's a good design to allow for characters to have a "normal" level of senses with a "heightened" level available in different circumstances.

You can try it yourself. Go outside and listen intensely to the sounds you hear. Pay hyper attention to each and every star, bug buzz, breeze, or smell. See how long you can do this before your brain says "I need a break" and you start thinking of candy bars or the Superb Owl or whatever.

I've done that. I grew up in rural Michigan where sounds in the summer were all over the place. It's not about whether or not you get distracted sometimes. You do. Those are the moments where you rolled a 1, 2 or 3. The goblins won't know which moments those are, though, and are just as likely to pick a hyper focused moment of 18, 19 or 20. It's statistically impossible, though, for all sneaking creatures for the entirety of the campaign to sneak in at the exact moment that you rolled a 10 + modifiers.

The concept of passive scores ruling those moments is broken from the beginning.

 

[billd91]

Note: I have a house rule in my game that says an active perception skill check has a minimum result of 1 better than a passive score. This is inspired by Torg where giving up your action to defend always results in at least +1 to your defenses.

***

Here we just disagree on a fundamental level. In my game a character keeping watch while the party sleeps isn't intently staring off into the distance like a sniper looking for a target for a solid block of time. They are awake when others are asleep, maybe doing a short patrol around the periphery, keeping the fire fed, mending a hole a sock, playing solitaire, or any number of other things. Their Passive Perception score is a level of "attention" they are able to pay to the world around them on a regular basis without switching to sniper targeting focus mode (which is an active Perception check in my mind).

I can't disagree more that Passive Perception is bad design, I think it's a good design to allow for characters to have a "normal" level of senses with a "heightened" level available in different circumstances.

I agree that passive perception isn't bad design, but whoo boy do we disagree on other aspects of it. You're basically treating it as Floor-1, but I will not do that. I think that any interpretation of passive perception that makes it a floor is what would be bad design since it throws 45% of the die range away (70% if the character has the observant feat). It's useful for avoiding having to constantly call for rolled checks for a skill that's always relevant or for disrupting the flow of action, which makes it very useful for spotting imminent threats... and that's about it. People keep trying to make it more than what it is and that, I think, is unfortunate because it warps its behavior.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Feels like having to roll Dex checks to walk a straight line to me.

 

[Lyxen]

Yes. I would. I definitely think of crawling around a dungeon, or a noble manner, or moving through the twisting alleys of a city, or navigating through a forest part of the Exploration Pillar.

Of, of course, so do I. But is it a journey, is it travelling ? Certainly not.

And for me, that means the Adventure rules. Pretty much, I'm always referencing those rules whenever my party is doing stuff outside the Combat Pillar or the Social Pillar.

And I'm all for the adventure rules, for example see the exploration section in the DMG, with for example sentences like:

• The rules on travel pace in the Player’s Handbook assume that a group of travelers adopts a pace that, over time, is unaffected by the individual members’ walking speeds.
• The difference between walking speeds can be significant during combat, but during an overland journey, the difference vanishes as travelers pause to catch their breath, the faster ones wait for the slower ones, and one traveler’s quickness is matched by another traveler’s endurance.

Clearly, travel, although it can be part of exploration, is NOT the whole of exploration, just as travelling is NOT the whole of movement, and by far in each case.

So, exploring a dungeon and moving from room to room, clearing them of opponents? Yep. To me, that sounds exactly like the Activity While Travelling section in Chapter 8 between the combat moments. As in the combat ends, and we go back to travelling, then combat starts again (or a social situation), and then back to travelling, etc.

Again, 5e is written in plain english. Travelling is for journeys, as pointed out many times in the rules, it even has its own subsection, both in movement and exploration. Does this mean it's the whole of it ? Certainly not. Again, grappling is mentioned in the combat section,, does it mean that all combat is grappling ?

After that, do what you want in your own games, but as a reminder, my personal objection to it is that it is used here for the sole purpose of depriving some characters of perception checks, so that they can be surprised by adversaries. If I were to play in such a campaign (which is unlikely), I would certainly never undertake any activity other than being on guard, and would find this very boring.

 

[Lyxen]

Splitting up the task means you can put more focus into your own work. Or be lazy and do less, but I'm assuming that's not the case.

The problem is that there is no modifier for watching all around a camp, just one half of the camp, or just down a corridor where the adversaries have to come from. Obviously, the DM can use modifiers, which can then be compensated for the number of people on watch (and their watchfulness, use of non-routine moves, etc.). Whether something like that becomes a factor depends on many other circumstances than having one or two people standing watch.

As far as I'm concerned, the only time movement is not traveling is when you're in combat / initiative has been rolled.

Oh, yes, of course, when I'm in a ballroom speaking to nobles, I'm travelling.

Maybe some other specific event like a skill challenge or the like. Otherwise, you're pretty much always traveling. Even in a big social scene in the middle of a fancy ball in Jrusar, you might have people keeping watch for threats, while others socialize with nobles, or engage in dancing.

And of course, all of that is travelling Do you realise how absurd this sounds ? Once more, 5e is written in plain english. Travelling, journeys, have specific meanings, and the rules are built around this, for example the sections are called MOVEMENT, or EXPLORATION, and not "movement" or "travelling".

 

[Lyxen]

It doesn't matter what we do in real life or, say, in a LARP. We're talking about what the rules say.

OK, we're done. I have shown you time and time again what the rules say about stealth and surprise, and the only thing that you are pointing out is that, in your mind, people are always travelling, which is simply absurd. On top of not being able to properly read ONE SENTENCE, see just below.

Except when it isn't "on," which is laid out clearly in the rules.

Except, you are not reading them, once more. The only thing that the rules actually say, and it's only when a group is travelling (you know, on a journey, not going to the bathroom to barf), is that they don't contribute their passive perception to the GROUPs chance of noticing hidden threats. AND THAT IS ALL: "Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger. These characters don’t contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group’s chance of noticing hidden threats."

Does it say that they don't get their passive perception for surprise ? NO (It actually refers straight to the surprise rules for this).
Does it say that hidden creatures approaching don't match their stealth check against their passive perception ? NO

The ONLY thing it says is that they don't get to contribute it to the GROUP, meaning that they can't warn others and that people failing their personal checks might indeed be surprised.

You are so scared of perception that you are forcing every one to use things like marching order and task assignment for travelling in all situations, and on top of that, misreading ONE SENTENCE ?

The rules don't make any distinction between when they apply

They apply when travelling. Full stop. By the very definition of them, and the common use of the word "travelling" in plain english.

because all scales of movement are covered in the section under discussion. They apply all the time as the characters explore the world. Do something other than stay alert for danger and your passive Perception doesn't apply unless you're a ranger in favored terrain. Failing to take that into account boosts the power of Perception.

No, it makes it in line with the intent of the designers, as I've shown to you, again, and again, and again. Here it is, as a reminder: ". Firmly in the DMS hands, we even say that the being out in the open part, the DM can ignore if the circumstances are right like you might be sneaking up on somebody who's watching, let's say some instals perform on street of water deep. And they might be so engrossed by the performance that even though it's broad daylight. There's no fog. And you're just walking right up behind the person. The DM might decide, well, you know your dexterity. Spell check was good enough, and this person is so distracted I'm going to let you do this right out in the open. Now the DM might decide though, okay, this guys distracted, so I'm going to let you just. I'm going to let you attempt this, but you might get a lousy roll. Which means maybe you bumped into somebody you tripped, you did something to give your position away, or even if you don't mind aside, maybe you didn't give your position away, but it just means you utterly failed to sneak up on this person. So again, this is a great example of the environment really plays a big role in the attentiveness of other people. It makes sense now going back to passive perception. This is, as its name implies, passive. And it's considered to be ALWAYS ON, unless you're under the effect of a condition like the unconscious condition that says you're not aware of your surroundings that really the practical effect of that is basically your passive perception is shut off. Passive perception is on basically whenever you're conscious and aware. Advantage and disadvantage can be applied to it if you have advantage on pass on, let's say perception checks in general. Then it would affect your passive perception by giving you a + 5. Similarly, if you have disadvantage, you have minus five to your passive perception score, because its passive a player does not get to say they use it. This isn't this isn't something people using my passive lesson right now. You know, it's ALWAYS ON. That's the baseline."

Here you go, the lead designer telling you in absolutely clear words, that it's the baseline, that it's always on. What more do you need ? Sheesh...

He is even telling you when it's not on, it's when you are basically unconscious. Not when you are scribbling in a notebook for a few seconds.

I'm cutting the rest because, honestly, telling me that you are reading the rules and know the designers intent and I'm not is just plainly laughable at this stage.

 

[Maxperson]

Of, of course, so do I. But is it a journey, is it travelling ? Certainly not.

By common definition, traveling is any distance at all. By 5e RAW 300 yards qualifies, which could in fact be within a dungeon. By 5e common definition mantra, it's any distance at all.

Here are the common definitions for travel from Meriam Webster.

1. to go on a trip or journey : to go to a place and especially one that is far away.
2. to go through or over (a place) during a trip or journey.
3. to move from one place to another.

Definitions 1 & 2 don't fit the 5e travel section, since 300 feet is all you need to move to travel, so 5e clearly uses definition 3. And again, the travel table on PHB page 182 shows that the travel distances for normal movement are for creatures that move 30 feet a round. Travel and movement are synonymous in 5e. One means the other.

Edit: And I just notices this on page 182 as well. Clearly travel and movement are fully interchangeable in 5e.

"As adventurers travel through a dungeon or the wilderness, they need to remain alert for danger, and some characters might perform other tasks to help the group's journey."

 

[iserith]

OK, we're done. I have shown you time and time again what the rules say about stealth and surprise, and the only thing that you are pointing out is that, in your mind, people are always travelling, which is simply absurd. On top of not being able to properly read ONE SENTENCE, see just below.



Except, you are not reading them, once more. The only thing that the rules actually say, and it's only when a group is travelling (you know, on a journey, not going to the bathroom to barf), is that they don't contribute their passive perception to the GROUPs chance of noticing hidden threats. AND THAT IS ALL: "Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger. These characters don’t contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group’s chance of noticing hidden threats."

Does it say that they don't get their passive perception for surprise ? NO (It actually refers straight to the surprise rules for this).
Does it say that hidden creatures approaching don't match their stealth check against their passive perception ? NO

The ONLY thing it says is that they don't get to contribute it to the GROUP, meaning that they can't warn others and that people failing their personal checks might indeed be surprised.

You are so scared of perception that you are forcing every one to use things like marching order and task assignment for travelling in all situations, and on top of that, misreading ONE SENTENCE ?



They apply when travelling. Full stop. By the very definition of them, and the common use of the word "travelling" in plain english.



No, it makes it in line with the intent of the designers, as I've shown to you, again, and again, and again. Here it is, as a reminder: ". Firmly in the DMS hands, we even say that the being out in the open part, the DM can ignore if the circumstances are right like you might be sneaking up on somebody who's watching, let's say some instals perform on street of water deep. And they might be so engrossed by the performance that even though it's broad daylight. There's no fog. And you're just walking right up behind the person. The DM might decide, well, you know your dexterity. Spell check was good enough, and this person is so distracted I'm going to let you do this right out in the open. Now the DM might decide though, okay, this guys distracted, so I'm going to let you just. I'm going to let you attempt this, but you might get a lousy roll. Which means maybe you bumped into somebody you tripped, you did something to give your position away, or even if you don't mind aside, maybe you didn't give your position away, but it just means you utterly failed to sneak up on this person. So again, this is a great example of the environment really plays a big role in the attentiveness of other people. It makes sense now going back to passive perception. This is, as its name implies, passive. And it's considered to be ALWAYS ON, unless you're under the effect of a condition like the unconscious condition that says you're not aware of your surroundings that really the practical effect of that is basically your passive perception is shut off. Passive perception is on basically whenever you're conscious and aware. Advantage and disadvantage can be applied to it if you have advantage on pass on, let's say perception checks in general. Then it would affect your passive perception by giving you a + 5. Similarly, if you have disadvantage, you have minus five to your passive perception score, because its passive a player does not get to say they use it. This isn't this isn't something people using my passive lesson right now. You know, it's ALWAYS ON. That's the baseline."

Here you go, the lead designer telling you in absolutely clear words, that it's the baseline, that it's always on. What more do you need ? Sheesh...

He is even telling you when it's not on, it's when you are basically unconscious. Not when you are scribbling in a notebook for a few seconds.

I'm cutting the rest because, honestly, telling me that you are reading the rules and know the designers intent and I'm not is just plainly laughable at this stage.

Yes, it's safe to assume always "on" unless you're doing the lists tasks or anything as distracting. The words are quite plain to see. You're conscious and aware, but paying attention to something other than keeping watch for danger, so your defense against surprise or noticing a trap is dropped. This isn't about being "scared of Perception" but rather applying the rules written in the books in a way that works seamlessly with other rules written in those same books. It just so happens that doing so means that Perception isn't as strong as in your game, given how you run it. For any DM still reading and concerned about how much Perception may be overvalued in their games because of how they are running things, here is a solution.