D&D 5E Beast master wants to use pet to get +5 to passive perception

[Lyxen]

By common definition, traveling is any distance at all. By 5e RAW 300 yards qualifies, which could in fact be within a dungeon. By 5e common definition mantra, it's any distance at all.

Here are the common definitions for travel from Meriam Webster.

1. to go on a trip or journey : to go to a place and especially one that is far away.
2. to go through or over (a place) during a trip or journey.
3. to move from one place to another.

Definitions 1 & 2 don't fit the 5e travel section, since 300 feet is all you need to move to travel, so 5e clearly uses definition 3. And again, the travel table on PHB page 182 shows that the travel distances for normal movement are for creatures that move 30 feet a round. Travel and movement are synonymous in 5e. One means the other.

First, I don't take it that way. When I'm exploring a dungeon, moving from room to room, I'm not travelling. Moreover, the group is certainly not travelling, and very probably not as a group, Some people stay put, others scout, then some regroup, there's a fight, etc. None of that is travelling.

There might be some "travelling" being done for example when, having explored the level, the group decides to head back to the stairs, walking as a group. But that is certainly not the norm.

So, clearly, for me, definition one which is the most commonly accepted definition of "travel" (the rules also mention "journey", by the way, which has a connotation of something rather long) is the proper one.

Honestly, between you and me, when adventurers are exploring a dungeon (and I mean really exploring, not moving from one corner of it to another corner ignoring what's on the way), do you ask them if they move at normal, fast or slow pace, and if they used forced march ? No, you use their individual speeds and you take their individual declarations.

 

[Lyxen]

Yes, it's safe to assume always "on" unless you're doing the lists tasks or anything as distracting.

Prove to me, just give me ONE rule that says that when people do something distracting, they lose their passive perception. I'm waiting. And not that thing about "don’t contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group’s chance of noticing hidden threats", because this is very specific to the group and is clearly a pointer to group checks (since it mentions the contribution to the group).

Show me where it says that a hidden creature does not match his stealth roll to that adventurer's passive perception. Show me where it says that, when combat start, any character is excluded from the surprise determination and is therefore mandatorily surprised.

Once more, the lead designer has told you, SPECIFICALLY that "it's considered to be ALWAYS ON, unless you're under the effect of a condition like the unconscious condition that says you're not aware of your surroundings".

Are you now going to pretend that any of the small activities that you can do when travelling renders you unconscious ? This is ridiculous, opce more the lead designers tells you about someone who is engrossed in a play, so much that you have a chance to walk right up to him (despite what the rules say about moving, hidden, towards a target), he is engrossed, but he still gets his passive perception.

Finally, are you going to pretend, that this guy, watching a show, is travelling ? Come on...

 

[Maxperson]

First, I don't take it that way. When I'm exploring a dungeon, moving from room to room, I'm not travelling.

That's fine, but 5e RAW says outright that it IS traveling. I just quoted the relevant passage to you. The issue is that you're applying your house rule to a RAW discussion and that's why you're conflicting with @iserith so much. He's talking about RAW.

Moreover, the group is certainly not travelling, and very probably not as a group, Some people stay put, others scout, then some regroup, there's a fight, etc. None of that is travelling.

There are three possibilities by RAW with regard to traveling in a 5e dungeon.

1. The main group is sitting still and the scout(s) is traveling.
2. The main group is traveling, but behind the scout who is traveling separately.
3. The group is traveling together and there is no scout.

There might be some "travelling" being done for example when, having explored the level, the group decides to head back to the stairs, walking as a group. But that is certainly not the norm.

Traveling in 5e is literally movement. The travel chart on PHB page 182 shows that. That chart is literally racial movement speed x 10 rounds(1 minute), racial movement speed x 600(1 hour), and racial movement speed x 2400(day).

So, clearly, for me, definition one which is the most commonly accepted definition of "travel" (the rules also mention "journey", by the way, which has a connotation of something rather long) is the proper one.

Which is fine. There's nothing wrong with changing the rules to suit your personal preference. You ARE changing the rules, though. It's spelled out in literal black and white in the PHB that walking through a dungeon is travel, so all the travel rules by RAW apply to dungeon exploration.

Honestly, between you and me, when adventurers are exploring a dungeon (and I mean really exploring, not moving from one corner of it to another corner ignoring what's on the way), do you ask them if they move at normal, fast or slow pace, and if they used forced march ? No, you use their individual speeds and you take their individual declarations.

No I do not ask them, because typically they are moving at their individual speeds, or likely as fast as the slowest member. However, I have many times over the year had a split party and one gets into trouble either within earshot or with a special means of communication. At that point the group not in trouble runs back to help, clearly moving at a fast pace and triggering those rules. Other times, at least as numerous and probably more so, I've had groups tell me that they are moving slowly looking for traps, triggering the slow pace rules. Absent being told differently, they are moving at a normal pace triggering those travel rules.

 

[iserith]

Prove to me, just give me ONE rule that says that when people do something distracting, they lose their passive perception. I'm waiting. And not that thing about "don’t contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group’s chance of noticing hidden threats", because this is very specific to the group and is clearly a pointer to group checks (since it mentions the contribution to the group).

Show me where it says that a hidden creature does not match his stealth roll to that adventurer's passive perception. Show me where it says that, when combat start, any character is excluded from the surprise determination and is therefore mandatorily surprised.

Once more, the lead designer has told you, SPECIFICALLY that "it's considered to be ALWAYS ON, unless you're under the effect of a condition like the unconscious condition that says you're not aware of your surroundings".

Are you now going to pretend that any of the small activities that you can do when travelling renders you unconscious ? This is ridiculous, opce more the lead designers tells you about someone who is engrossed in a play, so much that you have a chance to walk right up to him (despite what the rules say about moving, hidden, towards a target), he is engrossed, but he still gets his passive perception.

Finally, are you going to pretend, that this guy, watching a show, is travelling ? Come on...

You're already quoting the very sentence that is relevant here. You just choose to say it only applies when "traveling" which you told us you don't like to do. One can't help but wonder if there's not some confirmation bias going on. Your interpretation in and of itself doesn't even seem to fit the level of realism you appear to prefer. Not that realism is that important to me in a fantasy game, but in your interpretation, somehow PCs can be less perceptive when traveling (whatever you think that means) than in any other kind of exploration. Whereas the way I'm running it, that level of perception remains the same across all pillars and situations of the game, offering the players meaningful choices to make about the tasks they perform and the risks they take. As a side effect, it's a good choice to invest in as a player, but not the best choice.

 

[Lyxen]

That's fine, but 5e RAW says outright that it IS traveling.

No, sorry. Where does it say this ? There is a movement section, and travelling is just one subsection. The quote that you have given to me ("As adventurers travel through a dungeon or the wilderness, they need to remain alert for danger, and some characters might perform other tasks to help the group's journey.") just says that they might be travelling including through a dungeon. Where does it say that all movement in a dungeon is travel ? It does not.

I just quoted the relevant passage to you. The issue is that you're applying your house rule to a RAW discussion and that's why you're conflicting with @iserith so much. He's talking about RAW.

So am I, and he's just wrong, both on this, but also on applying a rule that he doesn't even read properly to every situation, including those in which people are not even moving, even less travelling.

There are three possibilities by RAW with regard to traveling in a 5e dungeon.

1. The main group is sitting still and the scout(s) is traveling.

No, he is just scouting. He might be moving, he might be still, who knows ?

2. The main group is traveling, but behind the scout who is traveling separately.
3. The group is traveling together and there is no scout.

Or, you know, people are just moving in their own way in the direction of their choice, and not moving as a group. Or maybe they're not even moving, just examining things, talking, etc.

Traveling in 5e is literally movement. The travel chart on PHB page 182 shows that. That chart is literally racial movement speed x 10 rounds(1 minute), racial movement speed x 600(1 hour), and racial movement speed x 2400(day).

No, actually, it's not even racial movement, it's averaged movement, because, as the DMG says: "The rules on travel pace in the Player’s Handbook assume that a group of travelers adopts a pace that, over time, is unaffected by the individual members’ walking speeds."

Notice the "over time" ?

Next sentence is "The difference between walking speeds can be significant during combat, but during an overland journey, the difference vanishes as travelers pause to catch their breath, the faster ones wait for the slower ones, and one traveler’s quickness is matched by another traveler’s endurance."

Notice the "overland journey" ? Notice how this, absolutely properly for a travel or a journey, talks about long distances and times ?

Which is fine. There's nothing wrong with changing the rules to suit your personal preference. You ARE changing the rules, though. It's spelled out in literal black and white in the PHB that walking through a dungeon is travel, so all the travel rules by RAW apply to dungeon exploration.

And once more no, it does not. Please show me one sentence telling me that all movement is travel.

No I do not ask them, because typically they are moving at their individual speeds, or likely as fast as the slowest member. However, I have many times over the year had a split party and one gets into trouble either within earshot or with a special means of communication. At that point the group not in trouble runs back to help, clearly moving at a fast pace and triggering those rules. Other times, at least as numerous and probably more so, I've had groups tell me that they are moving slowly looking for traps, triggering the slow pace rules. Absent being told differently, they are moving at a normal pace triggering those travel rules.

And that last sentence is significative. They might trigger them now and then, because they are travelling at that point in time. Showing exactly what I'm saying, that you can move without travelling and triggering those rules.

 

[Lyxen]

You're already quoting the very sentence that is relevant here. You just choose to say it only applies when "traveling" which you told us you don't like to do.

Of course, it applies to travelling, because it's (surprise) in the travelling section.

But you haver completely failed, once more, to prove how this deprives any character of his passive perception for any check required by the RAW. Prove it, or just let it drop.

Failing to answer all specific questions that I've pointed out just shows that you have zero ground to stand on. As written, this sentence applies to group checks, exactly as written.

Especially since I've given you en explicit example of the RAI that shows that even a heavily distracted person still gets his passive check. YOU ARE NOT READING THE RULES PROPERLY.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

@Lyxen

I can see from this thread you are EXTREMElY passionate about this topic....but you might want to stop and consider what you are spending your energy trying to accomplish. Everyone has already stated thier own interpretations of the rulebook multiple times. You arent going to get anyone to change theirs with some sort of legal argument using verbiage from a book.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

But you haver completely failed, once more, to prove how this deprives any character of his passive perception for any check required by the RAW. Prove it, or just let it drop.

PHB 182

"Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger.

These characters don't contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group's chance of noticing hidden threats. However, a character not watching for danger can do one of the following activities instead, or some other activity with the DM's permission."


Sounds a lot like the character is not able to use their passive perception in certain circumstances.

 

[Maxperson]

No, sorry. Where does it say this ? There is a movement section, and travelling is just one subsection. The quote that you have given to me ("As adventurers travel through a dungeon or the wilderness, they need to remain alert for danger, and some characters might perform other tasks to help the group's journey.") just says that they might be travelling including through a dungeon. Where does it say that all movement in a dungeon is travel ? It does not.

Do you really think that passage is talking about just walking through a dungeon on the way to la la land and not exploring the dungeon? Really?

It's clearly talking about walking around the dungeon exploring.

No, he is just scouting. He might be moving, he might be still, who knows ?

If he's still, then he's with the rest of the party and he's not scouting. When he moves, he's traveling through the dungeon looking around before reporting back to the group.

No, actually, it's not even racial movement, it's averaged movement, because, as the DMG says: "The rules on travel pace in the Player’s Handbook assume that a group of travelers adopts a pace that, over time, is unaffected by the individual members’ walking speeds."

That just coincidentally = 30 feet per round? Maybe they assume the rest of the party are arses that won't wait for the dwarf who then has to jog along to keep up.

Next sentence is "The difference between walking speeds can be significant during combat, but during an overland journey, the difference vanishes as travelers pause to catch their breath, the faster ones wait for the slower ones, and one traveler’s quickness is matched by another traveler’s endurance."

And yet still equals exactly the standard movement speed of 30 per 6 second round.

Notice the "overland journey" ? Notice how this, absolutely properly for a travel or a journey, talks about long distances and times ?

300 feet? That's really a long distance?

Look at the DMG page 242. Map Travel Pace. Note how it has travel pace in a dungeon. Note how the normal travel pace in the dungeon is 30 feet a round.

Page 242 also says, "Whatever environment the adventurers are exploring, you can use a map to follow their progress as you relate the details of their travels. In a dungeon, tracking movement on a map lets you describe the branching passages, doors, chambers, and other features the adventurers encounter as they go..."

The second sentence directly relates to the first sentence, so in proper context it is talking about dungeon travel while exploring the dungeon. The it gives you the Map Travel Pace chart with dungeon travel on it.

You are also cherry picking and ignoring the part of the Special Travel Pace section in the DMG that gives the actual rules. Those rules are...

In 1 minute, you can move a number of feet equal to
your speed times 10.

In 1 hour, you can move a number of miles equal to
your speed divided by 10.

Note how it's dependent on racial movement speed.

 

[Maxperson]

PHB 182

"Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger.

These characters don't contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group's chance of noticing hidden threats. However, a character not watching for danger can do one of the following activities instead, or some other activity with the DM's permission."


Sounds a lot like the character is not able to use their passive perception in certain circumstances.

But apparently that's only for walking and being distracted outside at a speed of 30 feet a round, not moving and being distracted in a dungeon at 30 feet a round.