D&D 5E Beast master wants to use pet to get +5 to passive perception

There is no in-game logic from what the player is proposing

I'm sorry, but I don't agree.

Humans were probably using the reactions of wolves/dogs hanging around their camps as indicators of trouble coming before wolves were fully domesticated. "Animal helps other animal recognize threats," is one of the most common symbiotic relationships in the animal kingdom!

A dog lifting its head, ears perked up, and looking beyond the firelight, and the owner asking, "What is it, boy?" is a trope as old as westerns.

I can get that you don't like the mechanical request for some reason. But saying there's "no in-game logic" seems excessive.
 

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Again, please contrast the above with "Players will tend to do what is advantageous to them". Do your players do this or not ?
Yep, and given that I play by the rules, Perception isn't overvalued relative to what it sounds like it going on here. So they don't tend to take Observant nor ask me to have their animal companion improve their passive Perception. It would not be as valuable in my game as it is in a game where Perception is always-on radar outside of combat.

You mean, apart from never being surprised and noticing every single trap and hidden thing that can be noticed in the game ? I find this very uninteresting, for once, and second, as you mentioned in a previous post, I think it's revealing about what is happening in the game and the advantages that this confers. Otherwise, as what happens in our games, players are usually happy about having a high score because it makes sense for their characters, and don't seek to over-optimise something.
Why is one PC out of multiple PCs not being surprised very often a problem? (Do you ban the Alert feat or weapons of warning?) Why is noticing traps a problem? Just noticing the trap doesn't resolve every challenge. There's still the matter of figuring it out and disarming it, or at least circumventing it. So go ahead and invest in high Perception. It's no problem for my game. Further, does being in the position to notice traps and avoiding surprise have no risk or trade-off in your game? If not, why not?

As well, having optimization in certain areas and having it make sense for the character isn't necessarily mutually exclusive. Your objection seems to be based on skillful play more than anything and there's nothing that requires skillful play be divorced from entertaining characterization.

No, in my view SOME players will do this because they are gaming the world rather than trying to have their character live in there. It's a different style, nothing wrong with this, but we all have our preferences. At our tables, players are encouraged to play in the world and not try to (ab)use the rules for technical effects "just because they think the rules say so". To each his own.
If the way the world is portrayed and actions resolved in that world make it such that passive Perception is a great advantage to have, wouldn't it make some amount of sense for adventurers living in said world to strive to be as perceptive as they can be? Why is this perceived (heheh) as abuse and not natural selection in the context of that fantasy setting?
 

Out of curiosity, are you allowing your players who are watching for monsters to also search for traps and secret doors? What about navigation and foraging? Are you keeping track of which rank in the marching order they are in, or allowing them to watch all ranks simultaneously?
Yes, this. For many DMs in my experience, the answers are Yes, Yes, No (respectively) and they wonder why Perception is overvalued in their game.
 

A dog lifting its head, ears perked up, and looking beyond the firelight, and the owner asking, "What is it, boy?" is a trope as old as westerns.
Agreed. A DM certainly can arbitrate it as two separate actors making independent rolls, but it's entirely valid to rule it as Working Together. In this way the animal is functioning like any other advantage granting circumstance or tool.

Another example is a canary in a mine. Yes, you can have it roll separately, but you can also just treat it as a tool and give advantage to the primary actor.
 

Which the DM would grant because the wolf is helping/working together. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I said on the first page I would allow it. Otherwise, I really don't care.
 

Watch dogs are a real thing, and a common trope in a lot of genres, not just fantasy, so yes I would allow the use of the animal to confer some kind of bonus, but with some caveats:

  1. The Character and the Animal are not the same being. Having two creatures means the likelihood of spotting an ambush or intruder goes up, but the animal is not actually extending the senses of its handler. So no, the PC does not get a bonus to Passive Perception. There is a reason every creature has their own PP score, even the wolf. Passive Perception is based solely on what that creature can do.
  2. However I do think the animal can help the character search by alerting its handler to things it may not have seen, so I'm not opposed to the idea of giving advantage on Perception Checks. Not Passive, Active Checks. However this is only in regards to detecting creatures. The animal companion cannot help the handler find traps, or secret doors, etc.
  3. Now when it comes to taking shifts while travelling or camped, it depends on whether or not you use Passive Perception or Active Perception for Guard Duty. In my home games we used Active Perception for whoever was on watch, in t his case allowing the animal to grant advantage. Also keep in mind the animal's senses, they might have a leg up over the handler based on race. However, the animal like any creature on watch can only take one shift.
Finally, if you're okay with the initial suggestion, but just think a bonus of +5 is too high, you could agree but give a smaller bonus. +1 or +2 is a bit more reasonable. Anything more than that starts to add up quite a bit, especially with the bounded accuracy of 5e. Granted, you stated the Ranger's perception is already quite high. Once you get a Passive in the 20+ range (very possible with certain feats or class abilities) most creatures except the most high level monsters aren't really going to be able to sneak up on the Ranger anyway, so I don't think its that big of a deal.
 

Out of curiosity, are you allowing your players who are watching for monsters to also search for traps and secret doors?

It depends on the circumstances, this is 5e so rulings over rules. Searching for traps and secret doors is investigation (at least for us), but causally noticing things is perception, especially passive.

What about navigation and foraging?

We are not doing a lot of this, it only happened during Tomb of Annihilation's Hexcrawl, and we used the standard rules.

Are you keeping track of which rank in the marching order they are in, or allowing them to watch all ranks simultaneously?

We are not doing a lot of dungeon crawl and marching order things, honestly. After that, it's again based on circumstances, depending on the type of threat and where it comes from.
 

Humans were probably using the reactions of wolves/dogs hanging around their camps as indicators of trouble coming before wolves were fully domesticated. "Animal helps other animal recognize threats," is one of the most common symbiotic relationships in the animal kingdom!
A dog lifting its head, ears perked up, and looking beyond the firelight, and the owner asking, "What is it, boy?" is a trope as old as westerns.
I can get that you don't like the mechanical request for some reason. But saying there's "no in-game logic" seems excessive.

My reference to the in-game logic is about the mutual reinforcement that consciously providing help provides. The animal is certainly not using any of the bonuses of the character, so why should he get the benefit of observant in what is in effect its additional roll ?

The correct translation of what is happening in the real world is that the animal gets his own chance of noticing the threat, based on his bonuses, and that the character has his own chance of noticing PLUS of course noticing if the dog acts up.

In effect, this translates to the owner asking the dog "stand watch", which is perfectly legitimate, but asking "help me watch" does not work on an animal, there is no coordination possible there. Whereas, on the other hand, if the partner was another intelligent creature, they could define sectors to watch, point out things suspicious to another and get at least common thinking.
 

Why is one PC out of multiple PCs not being surprised very often a problem? (Do you ban the Alert feat or weapons of warning?) Why is noticing traps a problem? Just noticing the trap doesn't resolve every challenge. There's still the matter of figuring it out and disarming it, or at least circumventing it. So go ahead and invest in high Perception. It's no problem for my game. Further, does being in the position to notice traps and avoiding surprise have no risk or trade-off in your game? If not, why not?
Agree 100% and I would add that the player is sacrificing a very valuable ASI plus their main subclass feature to do this. This doesn’t seem overpowered at all.

(I would also add, that this advantage wouldn’t even come into play for many of the Perception uses @Lyxen describes, since wolves probably aren’t terribly useful in detecting mechanicsl or magical traps).
 

Yep, and given that I play by the rules, Perception isn't overvalued relative to what it sounds like it going on here. So they don't tend to take Observant nor ask me to have their animal companion improve their passive Perception. It would not be as valuable in my game as it is in a game where Perception is always-on radar outside of combat.

And in all our campaigns, observant was taken exactly once by one character, because if fitted the personality and background of the character, and it was not a problem, because the player did not abuse it.

Why is one PC out of multiple PCs not being surprised very often a problem? (Do you ban the Alert feat or weapons of warning?)

We simply do not use weapons of warning, because we think that things that give an absolute power are usually a mark of bad design. Giving advantage is relative and fine. As for alertness, our players realise that it's a stupid feat again because of that "absoluteness" and no-one has ever asked to take it.

Why is noticing traps a problem?

Because it more or less invalidates the whole trap / exploration process (as well as secret doors), and at least one of the resources for exploration just go away, as well as the possible cleverness of thinking about it in the first place. Yes, I know, you can always design special workarounds, but doing it every single time has at least two drawbacks, that of requiring over-design and that of frustrating the player. As our players understand this, they don't try to bend the system back to front to get silly advantages like that.

Just noticing the trap doesn't resolve every challenge. There's still the matter of figuring it out and disarming it, or at least circumventing it. So go ahead and invest in high Perception. It's no problem for my game. Further, does being in the position to notice traps and avoiding surprise have no risk or trade-off in your game? If not, why not?

Because it detracts from the general fun, including that of other players.

As well, having optimization in certain areas and having it make sense for the character isn't necessarily mutually exclusive. Your objection seems to be based on skillful play more than anything and there's nothing that requires skillful play be divorced from entertaining characterization.

The game is a mix of a lot of things, but cutting out whole pans of things just because one player abuses the system is not for me the best way to go. Especially in this case since it's clearly an abuse, so for me it's way better to prevent it at start.

If the way the world is portrayed and actions resolved in that world make it such that passive Perception is a great advantage to have, wouldn't it make some amount of sense for adventurers living in said world to strive to be as perceptive as they can be? Why is this perceived (heheh) as abuse and not natural selection in the context of that fantasy setting?

Because natural selection does not work on individual cases as a general principle, it's statistical over generations of random mutations, for one. Second, it is abused, because the player is bending rules backwards (in particular the help action) to try and achieve something that the rules don't allow.

As for the world being made in a specific way, if it was that way, then ALL characters classes would have expertise in perception, otherwise no character would ever survive if he did not have that.

Observant is already a feat, and a powerful one, and one could argue that it's effectively already giving you advantage on passive perception. It's good enough, no need to double that, especially with bounded accuracy.

This reminds me of a player insisting that his owl familiar should have passive perception of 18 on the sheet, since it has 13 and advantage on rolls using sight or hearing, conveniently forgetting that some rolls might not be using these senses and that the owl, in the dark and even with darkvision would have disadvantage therefore cancelling the advantage. That's the part that bothers me, people with selective reading capabilities...
 

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