Behold! Yet Another Broken Psionic Power

[Darkness]

those in the 'Cocoon are helpless

Yes, that's kind of what the power that's the topic of this thread is about, so it's good that you're aware of it.

 

[Nail]

So....even the 1500gp cost? No big deal, eh? Same thing, about the same, equally balanced, etc.

Huh.

You guys have lots of treasure in your games?

 

[Darkness]

So....even the 1500gp cost? No big deal, eh? Same thing, about the same, equally balanced, etc.

Huh.

You guys have lots of treasure in your games?

If you mostly play in low-magic campaigns I can see this might seem to be a lot, but the DMG indicates a 13th-level PC (lowest to cast forcecage) should own stuff worth around 110,000 gp. If the PCs in your campaign generally don't, you probably should house-rule CRs as well, and not only treasure/magic frequency.

Actually, didn't you recently mention your character has way more equipment than he "should" at his level?

 

[Jdvn1]

So....even the 1500gp cost? No big deal, eh? Same thing, about the same, equally balanced, etc.

Yes. Because price isn't a trumping factor. Sure, it's bad. But if Forcecage had a save and no cost, it wouldn't be as useful. And if MEC had no save but a cost, then it wouldn't be as easy to cast. It looks like a pretty good trade-off.

 

[Jdvn1]

For the sake of usefulness:

Forcecage

Evocation [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area: Barred cage (20-ft. cube) or windowless cell (10-ft. cube)
Duration: 2 hours/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This powerful spell brings into being an immobile, invisible cubical prison composed of either bars of force or solid walls of force (your choice).

Creatures within the area are caught and contained unless they are too big to fit inside, in which case the spell automatically fails. Teleportation and other forms of astral travel provide a means of escape, but the force walls or bars extend into the Ethereal Plane, blocking ethereal travel.

Like a wall of force spell, a forcecage resists dispel magic, but it is vulnerable to a disintegrate spell, and it can be destroyed by a sphere of annihilation or a rod of cancellation.

Barred Cage: This version of the spell produces a 20-foot cube made of bands of force (similar to a wall of force spell) for bars. The bands are a half-inch wide, with half-inch gaps between them. Any creature capable of passing through such a small space can escape; others are confined. You can’t attack a creature in a barred cage with a weapon unless the weapon can fit between the gaps. Even against such weapons (including arrows and similar ranged attacks), a creature in the barred cage has cover. All spells and breath weapons can pass through the gaps in the bars.

Windowless Cell: This version of the spell produces a 10-foot cube with no way in and no way out. Solid walls of force form its six sides.

Material Component: Ruby dust worth 1,500 gp, which is tossed into the air and disappears when you cast the spell.

Ectoplasmic Cocoon
Metacreativity
Level: Shaper 3
Display: Auditory and material
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./ level)
Target: One Medium or smaller creature
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: Reflex negates
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 5

You draw writhing strands of ectoplasm from the Astral Plane that wrap up the subject like a mummy. The subject can still breathe but is otherwise helpless, unable to see outside the cocoon, speak, or take any physical actions. The subject’s nostrils are clear (air passes through the cocoon normally). The subject can execute purely mental actions (such as manifesting powers or casting spells with no verbal, somatic, or material components).

Cutting or damaging the cocoon can free a victim. The cocoon has hardness 8 and 20 hit points. Teleportation and other forms of travel provide a means of escape, but the cocoon extends into the Ethereal Plane, blocking ethereal travel. An ectoplasmic cocoon can’t be affected by dispel psionics, but it can be dismissed with dismiss ectoplasm, or otherwise destroyed by extreme measures or items.

The creature within the cocoon is visible only as a vague shape (substantial enough to interrupt line of sight) and cannot be directly harmed or interacted with unless the cocoon is destroyed. The cocooned creature can be moved normally (the weight of the cocoon is negligible).

A creature that is cocooned while aloft begins to fall immediately, and a creature that is cocooned while swimming or underwater may drown.

Augment: You can augment this power in one or both of the following ways.

1. For every 2 additional power points you spend, this power’s save DC increases by 1.

2. For every 2 additional power points you spend, this power can affect a target one size category larger.

Ectoplasmic Cocoon, Mass
Metacreativity
Level: Shaper 7
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius burst
Duration: 1 hour/level (D)
Saving Throw: Reflex negates
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 13

As ectoplasmic cocoon, except you can cocoon several creatures (or a single big creature that fits in a 20-footradius sphere or hemisphere) in a mass of writhing ectoplasm. Targets entirely within the area who fail their save are caught and cocooned. If a creature’s body is only partially within the area, this power does not affect that creature.

Augment: For every 2 additional power points you spend, the radius of this power’s area increases by 5 feet.

 

[Rystil Arden]

So....even the 1500gp cost? No big deal, eh? Same thing, about the same, equally balanced, etc.

Huh.

You guys have lots of treasure in your games?

Without the GP cost, Forcecage would become much more important.

Almost anyone can break their buddies out of an Ectoplasmic Cocoon, whether or not they are prepared for it. Nobody but a high level Monk (and some PrCs) can escape from Forcecage unless they are specifically prepared to deal with it, or happen to have prepared spells that will help. If you say "But every rogue carries around scrolls of Disintegrate to break Forcecage" then fine, but you've just allowed Forcecage to dictate strategy in your game. That alone gives it power.

Let's try to get rid of the emotional charge of pisonics by thinking of these as poisons:

Poison A costs X amount (the casting opportunity cost). It can poison a bunch of people, but there's a (more than 50%) chance it won't work for each person. Also, it becomes obvious that they are poisoned, and nearly anybody (at the level you would use it) can cure the poison immediately except the people who were poisoned.

Poison B costs is significantly more expensive than Poison A. It can probably only poison one person but maybe two. It automatically succeeds. Also, it becomes obvious that they are poisoned, but almost nobody can cure the poison unless they were specifically prepared to do so.

Which poison would you buy if you wanted to poison someone? Poison B. Which poison would you toss around for kicks if you didn't care as much: Poison A. They are balanced only because of the price.

Feel free to poke holes in the analogy, but it makes its point.

 

[Sarellion]

I see them as balanced , too, I would use Forcecage rather sparingly. That 1500 gp are gone who could have been invested in something more permanent.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Maybe it's just me but I don't see as much of a problem, though it could be my specific to my group of 18th level characters.

Most of the party is hard/impossible to capture between the dervish's freedom of movement ring and the ref saves of the rogue, bard, monk, ranger, and dervish. The cleric has a special ring of summoning and the rogue has a circlet of blasting, both of which are mental comand word items. The pyrokineticist's fire aura is a SUpernatural standard action that I treat as mental since it doesn't specifically state it can't be used while helpless and I'm not sure I wouldn't allow the half-dragon's breath weapon to work within the cocoon since it doesn't impare breathing.

Edit: the posting from the SRD mooted the comment about the monk maybe being able to escape.

So the wizard cohort is screwed and the cleric has to wait a bit for his summoned creature to bust him loose (being a runic guardian it'll do it in short order) if he didn't have Divine Agility active. The others require a bad save and even then half of those have innate abilities that would free them in a round or two.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I'll echo that my 18-20th level characters would have serious problems with Forcecage, but would laugh off Ectoplasmic Cocoon. Of course, they all get their CHA bonus to saves one way or another. If somebody cast Forcecage on the Frenzied Berserker and somebody else restrained the Archmage, it could seriously cause a TPK. In fact, I so far haven't even allowed Forcecage in my game because of the fiat aspect.

 

[Benben]

This is apples and oranges. You're better off comparing this power with Mass Hold Person.

Hold Person
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 2, Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One humanoid creature
Duration: 1 round/level (D); see text
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. (This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.)

A winged creature who is paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can’t swim and may drown.

Arcane Focus: A small, straight piece of iron.

Hold Person, Mass
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Targets: One or more humanoid creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart This spell functions like hold person, except as noted above.