D&D 5E Being strong and skilled is a magic of its own or, how I learned to stop worrying and love anime fightin' magic

[The-Magic-Sword]

So if Elminster was in a book and all you saw him do was cast several fireballs, toss a few lightning bolts, etc., he'd be low level as well?

if i was specifically told to deduce his level from it? yes, especially if that was the case while his life and the life of his friends was in danger.

Imma nip this in the bud though, we're discussing the feel of his level in the story, you aren't simulating the hobbit if you use Gandalf's power level in those other texts to inform his capability, since he doesn't use those capabilities in the hobbit. We Tolkien-heads might have reason to think he's LARPing as a low level character for whatever reason, but either way, that's what he performs like in the context of the story. The book even tells us that he's about to die, so there's no indication in the story that he has the option of ripping out some demigodic cosmic power.

Its probably an artifact of the context of when the Hobbit, LOTR, and the Silmarillion were each written since his lore is actually established later with earlier renditions of the story suggesting there are more wizards, or he's been depowered in-universe by that point for whatever reason, maybe related to the same reason he's sent back with more power after his death in LOTR

 

[Minigiant]

It destroyed the moon. I'm just using that as an example of "anime" that would be a bad fit. Not sure if people complain about the sun soul monk being weak compared to Krillen.

Sun soul monk is trash tho.

I know martial arts better than Radiant Sun Bolt and I quit kung fu and training years ago. I got a better level 3 feature than that.

Mundane Fighters really don't fit the 'level' of DND, they belong in lower magic settings like Westeros or Middle Earth where magic users are also much more restrained, or are more limited by cast times, or at the very least where armies they can lead at higher level are a more important part of stories.

Proper knights in Westeros would be high level fighters.

Jaime Lannister, Barristan Selmy, or any real Kingsguard (not Meryn Trant!) would be level 15-20 Fighter.

The issue is they have a Parry that adds +10 to AC, a reaction on every turn, and 4 fighting styles. Hitting them would be dang near impossible outside of crits and standng near them for more than 6 seconds is death..

 

[Maxperson]

Sounds like the GM forgot to vet gandalf’s backstory before approving the character.
“Oh yeah my wizard character helped weave the universe together before this”
“Your 6th level character did that you say?”
“Yup, totally”

More like.

Player: "I have this wizard who help weave the universe together and is capable of feats of magic that are immense, but I will be sent with instructions to limit myself."
DM: "Okay. Sounds good. You won't show anything more powerful than a 6th level wizard."
Player: "Fair enough."

Some time later...

DM: "You sit on Weathertop alone, waiting for your companions to arrive and 7 mighty Nazgul show up, wearing their rings of power."
Player: "I throw several fireballs at them to drive them off."
DM: "But that's not what a 6th level wizard can do."
Player: "I do it anyway, because I'm capable of immense magic."
DM: "Fine! The rest of you see several flashes of light in the night, far away from where you are."

Some time later...

DM: "As you travel through Moria, you see a CR 19 Balor come walking towards you, driving orcs before it as it comes."
Player: "Gandalf destroys it with his immense magical power!!"
DM: "But..."
Player: "I have the power, so I destroy it."
DM: "Very well, but since it also helped weave the universe together, it destroys you as well."
Player: "..."

Some time later...

Player: "Look, I really mean it this time. Pinky promise. Let me come back and I will act low level."
DM: "But you died."
Player: "Okay, okay. I'll wear white and it will work out. It works for Superman when he puts on glasses."
DM: "::sigh:: Alright."

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Sun soul monk is trash tho.

I know martial arts better than Radiant Sun Bolt and I quit kung fu and training years ago. I got a better level 3 feature than that.

Proper knights in Westeros would be high level fighters.

Jaime Lannister, Barristan Selmy, or any real Kingsguard (not Meryn Trant!) would be level 15-20 Fighter.

The issue is they have a Parry that adds +10 to AC, a reaction on every turn, and 4 fighting styles. Hitting them would be dang near impossible outside of crits and standng near them for more than 6 seconds is death..

What justifies them as high level? None of them can take even young dragons in a sword fight, and they go down if a handful of other dudes attack them at once.

 

[lingual]

Mundane Fighters really don't fit the 'level' of DND, they belong in lower magic settings like Westeros or Middle Earth where magic users are also much more restrained, or are more limited by cast times, or at the very least where armies they can lead at higher level are a more important part of stories.

I'm just saying if someone wants to play a gritty veteran, they are going to be allowed too. Champions and battle masters are already there and will not be errata'ed out. The anime inspired stuff will be presented a options. A lot of ppl play low magic settings and they don't want that stuff. I can tell by the threads on this forum.

 

[Maxperson]

if i was specifically told to deduce his level from it? yes, especially if that was the case while his life and the life of his friends was in danger.

What level wizard can cast several fireballs as Gandalf did on Weathertop? Not 6th.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

What level wizard can cast several fireballs as Gandalf did on Weathertop? Not 6th.

Those weren't fireballs, otherwise he'd be able to blast most of them with one shot, that was the Produce Flame cantrip, maybe you could interpret it as a scorching ray if you wanna get particular about the fact that he does more than one in six seconds.

 

[Minigiant]

What justifies them as high level? None of them can take even young dragons in a sword fight, and they go down if a handful of other dudes attack them at once.

They typically can take multiple guys in a fight due to their boosted AC. In D&D terms they'dbe able to parry a dragon's claws, bite, tail, wing attacks. The dragon would have to spam breath attacks to kill Jamie with 2 hands but be cut to ribbons if it should in melee.

 

[Maxperson]

Those weren't fireballs, otherwise he'd be able to blast most of them with one shot, that was the Produce Flame cantrip, maybe you could interpret it as a scorching ray if you wanna get particular about the fact that he does more than one in six seconds.

No. When the rest of the group got to weather top there were large scorch marks in multiple areas of the hill. The Nazgul would have approached from more than one direction. You can try to justify your reduced level theory, but he was tossing fireballs on a large hill where a fort used to be.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

No. When the rest of the group got to weather top there were large scorch marks in multiple areas of the hill. The Nazgul would have approached from more than one direction. You can try to justify your reduced level theory, but he was tossing fireballs on a large hill where a fort used to be.

Even if we accept they're fireballs, he can cast 3 of those right at level 6 so its not like multiple large scorch marks would make him any higher level than that.