Being threatened by products you aren't interested in

[Kae'Yoss]

The product line is The Dark Eye rpg.

Over here, it's called "Das Schwarze Auge" (DSA). I hate it like poison

This is a game and system almost as old as D&D that was using a d20 type mechanic for decades before D&D3.5 . I understand that it has quiet a following....in Germany.

If I remember what I do know about the game (I saw some older edition, not the current one, that being 4e), did have something similar, but not the same. I think you rolled on your ability, and had to stay below (or above?) it with the d20.

It took them until the current edition to separate races and classes (it still had "hero type" mechanics before). And there were many other things I objected to: there was something like advantages and disadvantages, like superstition and greed, and you had stats and had to roll for them in situations where it might come up. The spells all had silly rhymes as names (no "Polymorph", but "Spindalee-Spindalelz - Be someone Else"), which might be funny in some instants, but the rules shouldn't be like that.

The 4th edition is often called D20SA - I haven't seen it personally, but several people who have seen it accuse it of being a D20 copy. Wouldn't be the firt time it "borrowed" from D&D: The game first was released a couple of months after D&D was first translated into German, and by the very same guy who translated D&D into German. Since I feel a deep loathing of the D&D translations (they show that you really can rape a language), I can't take anything seriously from the guy who did it first.


Okay, my rant's over (My Hat of ASD Know no limit!), back to the matters at hand.

Last year, Fanpro released the second english book for the system. Lands of Adventura. It is a campaine setting book. Still no magic system!

So it wasn't included in the book itself? Aventuria (though not actually "adventura", it's still a name so cheesy that Max Payne, Dr. Evil and Action Man would feel right at home) was always pretty much hard-wired into the game, with hero types being setting specific and all that.

I guess they know that they have absolutely no chance to compete with D&D on the English sector, but that still doesn't explain why they release an incomplete product. Still, this fits neatly into the rest of my opinion about DSA and their creators.

I just visited the Dark Eye website. They call DSA the premier German RPG. I don't know whether they mean premier game made in Germany (which would be like saying "humans are the most intelligent humanoid species on Earth) or most-sold and -played game in Germany, which I will believe after I saw numbers supporting it (I'm not at all sure that it could beat D&D, or even WoD). They also have a couple of Adventures, which they themselves call "brilliant". I can't stand people blowing their own horn like that.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

I just visited the Dark Eye website. They call DSA the premier German RPG. I don't know whether they mean premier game made in Germany (which would be like saying "humans are the most intelligent humanoid species on Earth) or most-sold and -played game in Germany, which I will believe after I saw numbers supporting it (I'm not at all sure that it could beat D&D, or even WoD).

Believe it. Das Schwarze Auge has an Amazon.DE sales rank of #1.150, while the German D&D Player's Handbook only has one of #13.513. Whether you like it or not, DSA is the predominant RPG on the German market, just like D&D dominates the American market. It's also the only RPG that's being sold in more conventional, non-RPG game stores in Germany.

 

[bento]

I do think the gripe-ers have a point. WoTC owns the intellectual properties of the settings, and then they put corporate resources (assigned authors, graphic artists, press time at the publishers) to make a book happen. It's an investment. It's in THEIR best interest to make more adventures this year than last. It's in THEIR best interest to ship twice as many Eberron books that Forgotten Realms book this year.

That's not to say that it isn't an investment for Random House to publish a new Amy Tan book, but Amy can decide not to write a book this year, OR write two this year. As long as Random House can budget the marketing dollars and press time, if she writes two then RH will get both on the shelves in 12 months.

The same issues that rule the gaming companies are seen in the comic book world. You want to write a Spider-Man comic? Then you'll have to do it by Marvel's rules or they'll sue you as soon as it sees light. Why? Because Marvel owns Spider-Man! But if tomorrow Marvel decides no more Spider-Man, then that's their choice.

Now going back to gaming. Rather than complain about your favorite setting not getting enough love, I've seen plenty of people pour their creativity in creating new PrCs, spells or new storylines to get what they want from the game. For those whiners - stop complaining and start putting your creative hats on! The tools are all there in front of you.

The only difference between you and Keith Baker is at the end of the day he draws a paycheck from WoTC, while you have the love and admiration of your players for making an excellent adventure come to life!

 

[BryonD]

Yep. Ditto Magic of Incarnum. Books like that get released, and you hear calls of "Wizards isn't being innovative". Apparently they're the wrong kind of innovative.

Cheers!

I thought I heard a lot of positive response to the innovation in both these books (MoI and Bo9S). It was just that both these books also drew a significant amount of criticism for soem really questionable mechanical parts. And it is not relevant whether someone else agrees or not that a particular class was broken or just didn't work. No matter how much you love it, if a lot of other people see it as really flawed, then the reception is going to suffer.

Now, take a book that goes in a new direction and you know you are going to narrow your audience. Which is fine. But it makes it harder to afford other issues.


Of course, it is also interesting to compare these two books. If the buzz I hear is fair, then Bo9S did much much better than MoI. Which is a hint of a road we went down with 2E. It seems that you can generate a good quick flow of cash by cranking up the power level. Build a better monster slayer and a nice sized chunk of the gaming community will beat a path to your door. But of course if you stay on that road you start to screw up the base game. Its killing the goose instead of waiting for the next golden egg.

 

[talien]

I think the key problem is that RPGs are a collaborative hobby, unlike books, movies and computer games, which can be enjoyed by an individual, if necessary.

In a way, your enjoyment of the RPG hobby is contingent on finding other people who enjoy the same things that you do, or at least, persuading or convincing others that they should enjoy the same things you do.

That's why some people who hate Book A, Rule B, Prestige Class C, Feat D, Spell E, Exotic Weapon F, System G, Edition H, Play Style I, etc. put so much effort into deriding them and trying to make others believe that they are bad, too. They are fuelled by fear that others will otherwise be converted into liking what they don't, and they will end up with less and less people who like the same things they do. If that happens, they will be forced to play with things they don't like, or go without a game completely.

FireLance nailed it: beyond the fact that the industry isn't that large to begin with, swaying people to seeing things "your way" is very much a struggle for survival of a particular playing style. If the FR people don't get FR books, they know that means (though it's unfair, given that all RPG books should theoretically be timeless) that's less players. So they're not just screaming about resource allocation, they're struggling to defend their play style.

It all casts something of a pathetic light on the game industry though.

 

[tadk]

Where this does start to irk me a little, though, is when a company won't devote the resources to something, and then won't let others fill that niche out of fear of competition or whatever.

Hey Guy

So got an example of that you would be willing to share with me?
Or an example of where you think that happened, etc?
Speculation is fine between us

TK

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Believe it. Das Schwarze Auge has an Amazon.DE sales rank of #1.150, while the German D&D Player's Handbook only has one of #13.513. Whether you like it or not, DSA is the predominant RPG on the German market, just like D&D dominates the American market. It's also the only RPG that's being sold in more conventional, non-RPG game stores in Germany.

Do you have a link for that? I have one linke, that lists DSA as #1.243 - under Toys. The German PHB is #16.146 under Books. The English one is #6.532 in English Books, #44.080 in Books.

Unless I have the wrong product and there's one listed under books, the comparison won't work.

Plus, Isn't DSA sold in other stores because it's boxes, not books? I heard that the reason German RPG material is often in boxes is because it's sold in toy stores, and the English stuff is just books because bookstores sell it.

 

[Shade]

I think it's a valid reaction, and not limited to the RPG industry.

It's all about opportunity cost.

When Blizzard pours all their resources into WoW, if you're not a fan of MMORPGs, and are a fan of Warcraft, Starcraft, and Diablo, there's an opportunity cost.

When Joss Whedon spends a good chunk of time on a Wonder Woman movie that he won't end up making, there's an opportunity cost for fans of the Buffyverse.

When Robert Jordan delays finishing the Wheel of Time series while writing Conan and civil war novels, there's an opportunity cost for fans of WoT.

Back to D&D in particular...

When WotC announces that they plan on limiting the number of campaign settings they'll produce, and you're a fan of Greyhawk, Planescape, Dark Sun, Spelljammer, etc., and they go on to announce Eberron, there's an opportunity cost.

When one or more of your favorite designers are assigned to the new campaign setting that doesn't interest you (James Wyatt, I miss you), there's an opportunity cost.

It's all about opportunity cost.

 

[Pbartender]

Being threatened by products you aren't interested in...

I'd suggest staying out of melee combat with products you aren't interested in, and avoid provoking attacks of opportunity from them. If that proves difficult, you may consider taking Dodge and Mobility as feats or maxing out your ranks in Tumble. If worst comes to worst, take Improved Disarm and pick up a spiked chain, a flail, ransuer or a whip... after all, if you take away the weapon from the products you aren't interested in, they can't threaten you.

I don't see people complaining that Random House is putting out a Tami Hoag and not putting more effort in getting George R. R. Martin to produce more. I don't see complaints that Sony is putting out Across the Universe and not putting enough into a new Spiderman movie.

That's only because you aren't hanging out on the right forum for it. Trust me, people do complain about those sorts of things as well... they just don't generally do it on EN World.

 

[Umbran]

When WotC put out Eberron, I saw a number of people complaining about Eberron, not because of it's merits, but because WotC wasn't instead putting out more Forgotten Realms or other game line materials.

I don't see this much in any other area. I don't see people complaining that Random House is putting out a Tami Hoag and not putting more effort in getting George R. R. Martin to produce more. I don't see complaints that Sony is putting out Across the Universe and not putting enough into a new Spiderman movie.

Is it just me, or is this becoming more common?

I don't think it is more common.

The [problem, as you note it, is resources. Random House has resources to publish a great many books at once. Putting out Tami Hoag does not at all prevent them from putting out George RR Martin. But WotC is more strapped for resources, and smaller publishers even moreso. If they open a second line, it is very likely to have impact on the first.

Oh, and you'll nte that when George RR martin works on soemthing other than Song of Ice and Fire, people do complain about where he's putting his resources