D&D 5E Berserker is balanced with Zealot without exhaustion from Frenzy

[Stalker0]

Taking a second look, does this factor in miss chances at all?

That may be important because the zealot effect applies to the first hit. So as long as either attack hits you'll get the bonus. That may make the zealot DPR a little bit higher in comparison compared to frenzy.

 

[cooperjer]

I removed the Frenzy penalty long ago. It is the only ability I am aware of that actually penalizes the player. Everything else is about resource management. You don't see a Totem Barbarian being punished for being resistant to pretty much every damage type. This ability is so out of whack based on the way they have designed every other ability.

Actually, I take it back. Only ability I can think of that penalizes a player is using a freaking Wish spell. So Frenzy is as game breaking as Wish? Is that what WotC is saying?

Did you add a resource cost to frenzy or are you letting the barbarian increase DPR at no cost?

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[Hawk Diesel]

Did you add a resource cost to frenzy or are you letting the barbarian increase DPR at no cost?

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Totem Barbarians can increase DPR and damage soak without additional cost. Same with Zealot and Battlerager Barbarians. Why should a Berserker Barbarian be treated any differently?

 

[Bardbarian]

DPR is not the only thing that determines balance. From personal experience the level 6 Frenzy ability is extremely powerful and the reason I choose Frenzy over all other barbarian types. I play a polearm Master so the only thing frenzy does is change my 1d4 bludgeoning attack into 1d10 slashing. A Great weapon master will often get a bonus action attack from the feat. I think people overemphasize the Frenzy ability. In addition Exaustion is not even bad until you get past the third rank. Before that the class abilities of the Barbarian compensate for the Penalties. There are two major flaws with the Frenzy barb.
1: the level 3 ability should have been swapped with the level 6 for a smoother progression, that lines up better with Totem.
2: The level 10 ability is useless.

Exaustion is so over emphasized that I think few people have actually played the class to find out what they actually do. At level 14 they are a beast that strikes fear into the enemy. I cant wait until level 20 when I get unlimited rages.

 

[ad_hoc]

Did you add a resource cost to frenzy or are you letting the barbarian increase DPR at no cost?

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The cost is the subclass and the bonus action.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

[MENTION=6802784]Bardbarian[/MENTION] and others unhappy with the Berserker's Intimidating Presence ability. It is not a bad ability, because it is not meant to be a strong ability. If you look at most barbarian archetypes, level 10 is generally a ribbon ability. Totem Warriors get Commune with Nature, Battleragers get Dash as a bonus action while raging. In comparison with these abilities, Intimidating Presence is right in the same power level of balance. The level 10 ability for a Barbarian tends to be less focused on combat prowess and more focused on movement, exploration, or support. The only Barbarian with a significant level 10 ability might be the Zealot. Advantage for the whole party on all attacks and saves for 1 round is pretty intense.

 

[Bardbarian]

[MENTION=6802784]Bardbarian[/MENTION] and others unhappy with the Berserker's Intimidating Presence ability. It is not a bad ability, because it is not meant to be a strong ability. If you look at most barbarian archetypes, level 10 is generally a ribbon ability. Totem Warriors get Commune with Nature, Battleragers get Dash as a bonus action while raging. In comparison with these abilities, Intimidating Presence is right in the same power level of balance. The level 10 ability for a Barbarian tends to be less focused on combat prowess and more focused on movement, exploration, or support. The only Barbarian with a significant level 10 ability might be the Zealot. Advantage for the whole party on all attacks and saves for 1 round is pretty intense.

I agree that it shouldn't be particularly strong, I was replying to an earlier remark that it was in fact one of their strongest abilities. It is not powerful for the reasons I stated earlier and I would personally prefer it was replaced with another ability entirely just because I feel it is an in combat trap option. I still play a Frenzy barb despite this minor issue and think its the stronger option from the PHB in tier 3 and 4 play. I would like for some of the options of the Frenzy barb to be tweaked but it's a fine line, if tweaked too far it would become the new Bear Barb that everyone seems to play.

 

[Stalker0]

[MENTION=6802784]Bardbarian[/MENTION] Totem Warriors get Commune with Nature, Battleragers get Dash as a bonus action while raging.

I agree that commune with nature isn't all that great, though the dash as a bonus action is actually very nice, and not to be underestimated.

I also think totem warriors are pretty front loaded. The level 3 ability is awesome (especially bear). Level 6 is ok, and then the level 10 is whatever.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Taking a second look, does this factor in miss chances at all?

That may be important because the zealot effect applies to the first hit. So as long as either attack hits you'll get the bonus. That may make the zealot DPR a little bit higher in comparison compared to frenzy.

I agree with you that this should push DPR into Zealot’s favor. I didn’t adjust the numbers, but I did comment on it near the end of the OP.

 

[Saeviomagy]

It might be a better ability if it used a stat that was higher in the priority of a barbarian. As the only feature of the barbarian that keys off Charisma in a class that has very compelling need of Str, Dex and Con and a real benefit from wisdom for the purpose of saves and skills, this one ability is not reliable enough to warrant the loss of 3 attacks for a low chance of success of hindering an enemy for a single round.

"Hinder for a single round" is your problem here. For the right foe, being immobilized is effectively incapacitated - many foes don't have powerful ranged attacks. And 'single round' is 'until I choose to stop'. The ability just keeps going as long as you keep maintaining it.

Let's say you'r a 15th level barbarian up against an ancient red dragon, and your charisma is 10.

You still have a 25% chance to affect him. And once you affect him, if you can pull back to 125 feet with the right angle... the fight is over. You literally have as long as you want with that sucker sitting in his corner getting slammed by whatever your buddies have range with, with zero chance to break free.

Personally I think that's worth a crack instead of some comparitively small portion of his hitpoints.