D&D 5E Best alchemist build

It seems to me that they need to be able to get their damage bonus using an infused item as a focus to be on par with the other subclasses. It's not a huge deal, but requiring them to pull out the beakers even at higher level to get their expected damage output is off-putting.

I've been trying to think of the simplest way to buff them. I'm thinking they probably need to just get a set number of extra (non-random) elixirs at the end of a long rest. Would proficiency bonus work?
 

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In my opinion the alchemist suffers from a few things:

  • free potions are random.
  • non random potions that don't scale with the slot used (so maximum 3 extra per day for a long time)
  • thp for potions, but not for spells and extra healing/damage for spells but not for potions (works against each other)
  • extra damage only for one roll of the spell, so not for flaming sphere bonus action...
  • general artificer: flash of genious quadratically scales with int (it would be better prof bonus per day).

Saving graces:
  • green flame blade can work with artificer. Either gauntlets of ogre strength or headband of intellect can help with stat increases.
  • 2d10 + 4 fire bolt is not too shabby at level 5
  • homunculus can help with bonus action usage.
  • flaming sphere is also a good use of the bonus action at level 5. With good concentration saves and +4 damage, we look at a per round damage of 2d10 + 4 + 2d6 which is still ok ish.
If you remember that you could create minor bless potions and flight, you can easily kill or drive away anything without ranged weapons from above...

Admittedly, a wizard can cast levitate for nearly the same effect, but that costs them the concentration slot.

The alchemist will never shine in any role, but the potions can create some interesting roleplayimg opportunities. Especially if you roll a 6 for the random potion, you might as well use it for interesting things.

All I can say is that one of the most effective characters I have seen played was a warlock that took the at will change self invocation and actor feat really causing havoc by constantly infiltrating the enemy lines and acting as a sepcific enemy to give wrong orders.
 

It seems to me that they need to be able to get their damage bonus using an infused item as a focus to be on par with the other subclasses. It's not a huge deal, but requiring them to pull out the beakers even at higher level to get their expected damage output is off-putting.

I've been trying to think of the simplest way to buff them. I'm thinking they probably need to just get a set number of extra (non-random) elixirs at the end of a long rest. Would proficiency bonus work?

Yes. And simply creating 1 potion per spell level used would help too.
 

Ashrym

Legend
It's not a huge deal, but requiring them to pull out the beakers even at higher level to get their expected damage output is off-putting.

Don't require the beakers for that application of alchemist supplies.

Alchemist supplies includes beakers and such, true, but it also includes pouches of alchemical ingredients. We treat it more like a fancy spell component pouch in that regard and assume the alchemist is reaching into a satchel style of ingredient supplies instead of the additional items used for alchemical crafting.

IE, focus on the supplies portion of the supplies instead of the hardware that uses those supplies for crafting.
 

Ashrym

Legend
free potions are random.

I agree it's not exactly great, but random is interesting for some people. I don't care for random but I find it's a minor quibble because the random elixirs will get used regardless of what gets rolled, and at least it gives variety instead of a player always picking the same elixirs.

Could be better but not a big deal, IME.

non random potions that don't scale with the slot used (so maximum 3 extra per day for a long time)

Yes and no.

They don't offer the ability to scale but that doesn't mean an alchemist cannot use a higher level slot in a pinch. Elixirs can be created from any slot of 1st-level or higher. They are pretty decent for a 1st-level slot but that 3 per day is less of a restriction than a bigger opportunity cost in place of what else the slot might have been used to cast.

It's not a big deal to use a 2nd-level slot for the transformation elixir, for example, because it's a 2nd-level spell and concentration free so it's a better use of the 2nd-level slot than actually casting alter self as a 2nd-level spell. No one should question using a 2nd-level slot on an elixir that replicates a 2nd-level spell but saves concentration. Being able to use a 1st-level slot more effectively than that 2nd-level slot is just better but doesn't change using the 2nd-level slot if needed.

Flight elixirs fall into that a bit too. I would still be better off to spend a 2nd-level slot on a flight elixir than the levitate spell if I want any mobility whatsoever, or if I am already using concentration on something else. On myself, anyway; levitate has the offensive applications that flight elixirs do not.

I would have a hard time spending a 2nd-level slot on other elixirs, except possibly boldness to stack bonuses but I'd be more likely to use that slot on enhance ability.

The point here is the best elixirs are worth a 2nd-level slot so that 3 isn't the limit you suggest. It's actually true of every other 1st-level spell in the game that also doesn't scale for every other class in the game. ;-)

thp for potions, but not for spells and extra healing/damage for spells but not for potions (works against each other)

Not really.

THP for boldness or transformation is a bonus to which the healing bonus of a spell is irrelevant. If I'm not using higher level slots for healing elixir's then the THP from that elixir is irrelevant to higher level healing spells I cast. If the random elixir's are healing it's just free bonus healing not using a slot.

The only competition is in slot usage for 1st-level healing spells like cure wounds or healing word, and I would either:
  1. Use whichever give me a better advantage at the time, or;
  2. Use the elixir to allow me to prepare a different spell instead of doubling up. That increases my options and just prep something other than cure wounds.

extra damage only for one roll of the spell, so not for flaming sphere bonus action...

That's the standard for similar abilities. Empowered evocation only allows for one damage roll too for example. Most other spellcasters get no bonus at all or only apply the bonus to cantrips and wait to a higher level to get the bonus. This isn't a weak point because it's slightly better than most casters even if it isn't agonizing blast.

general artificer: flash of genious quadratically scales with int (it would be better prof bonus per day).

I don't follow this one. I get that it's more times per day for a bigger bonus based on a single stat but proficiency bonus doesn't significantly change that outside of less need for the INT investment because there's no cost at all to proficiency bonus.

green flame blade can work with artificer. Either gauntlets of ogre strength or headband of intellect can help with stat increases.

That spell can work with some builds but it doesn't work well compared to extra attack (armorer, battle smith) and creates a MAD condition that didn't exist (alchemist, artillerist) prior to going with that build. Band-aiding the self-imposed MAD with infusions is a big opportunity cost on infusions learned and used.

2d10 + 4 fire bolt is not too shabby at level 5

It's not but for some reason someone will compare it to a fighter with precision attack, sharpshooter, and crossbow expert. It's not great damage either, tbf, but it's better than basic cantrip damage. Basic cantrip damage is not impressive, however, over extra attacks.

homunculus can help with bonus action usage.

So can other spells that use the bonus action. Sanctuary or healing word are bonus action spells, for example. At low levels it's spells like heat metal or flaming sphere or expeditious retreat. At high levels it's animate objects or Bigby's hand.

There are plenty of spells that use that bonus action. Just because battle smiths and artillerists have a good built in feature doesn't mean other artificers cannot make good use of that action. Just because the bonus action isn't being used for damage doesn't mean it's not being used effectively. ;-)

flaming sphere is also a good use of the bonus action at level 5. With good concentration saves and +4 damage, we look at a per round damage of 2d10 + 4 + 2d6 which is still ok ish.

Wait for the SSI too. It opens up opportunities.

Admittedly, a wizard can cast levitate for nearly the same effect, but that costs them the concentration slot.

Not without concentration, using a higher level slot, and limiting mobility and where the wizard can move. The flight elixir not using concentration means the alchemist could be using Tasha's caustic brew while also flying and playing pew pew with cantrips.

Concentration is a pretty big limitation to bypass. Elixir's bypass concentration and the SSI works around it a bit.

The alchemist will never shine in any role, but the potions can create some interesting roleplayimg opportunities. Especially if you roll a 6 for the random potion, you might as well use it for interesting things.

Here's the thing: the random roll doesn't matter because if the player wants to create those opportunities he/she/they will just spend the slot to make it happen.

This is what I find playing alchemists over other artificers:
  • They spend the bonus action on a wider variety of options. Those options don't cease to exist for other artificers but they tend to focus in other areas. It's a bit of a variation on decision paralysis.
  • Elixirs that replicate spells means not needing to prepare those spells. Alchemists will prepare a different spell instead. For example, levitate and alter self are both on the artificer spell list. Either the other subclasses give up those options and only the alchemist carries them, or they prepare those spells and the alchemist prepares something else they would lose out on.
  • Similar to elixirs, restorative reagents means the artificer doesn't need to prepare lesser restoration or use a slot to cast it. That's a spell other artificers either give up or prepare, and slots they use when it comes up that alchemists spend on something else.
  • Elixirs are definitely not as efficient as armor benefits, cannons, or steel defenders.
My 2cents. :)
 

Yaarel

He Mage
The best class for alchemist is Druid.

Less animals, more elements. The plants are fine. The healing (and immortality like resurrection and regeneration are correct).

Metallurgical aspects of the earth element work too.


The Druid can handle Hellenistic (Egyptian Greek) alchemy, but also Daoist, Islamic, and European alchemies.
 

I agree it's not exactly great, but random is interesting for some people. I don't care for random but I find it's a minor quibble because the random elixirs will get used regardless of what gets rolled, and at least it gives variety instead of a player always picking the same elixirs.

Could be better but not a big deal, IME.



Yes and no.

They don't offer the ability to scale but that doesn't mean an alchemist cannot use a higher level slot in a pinch. Elixirs can be created from any slot of 1st-level or higher. They are pretty decent for a 1st-level slot but that 3 per day is less of a restriction than a bigger opportunity cost in place of what else the slot might have been used to cast.

It's not a big deal to use a 2nd-level slot for the transformation elixir, for example, because it's a 2nd-level spell and concentration free so it's a better use of the 2nd-level slot than actually casting alter self as a 2nd-level spell. No one should question using a 2nd-level slot on an elixir that replicates a 2nd-level spell but saves concentration. Being able to use a 1st-level slot more effectively than that 2nd-level slot is just better but doesn't change using the 2nd-level slot if needed.

Flight elixirs fall into that a bit too. I would still be better off to spend a 2nd-level slot on a flight elixir than the levitate spell if I want any mobility whatsoever, or if I am already using concentration on something else. On myself, anyway; levitate has the offensive applications that flight elixirs do not.

I would have a hard time spending a 2nd-level slot on other elixirs, except possibly boldness to stack bonuses but I'd be more likely to use that slot on enhance ability.

The point here is the best elixirs are worth a 2nd-level slot so that 3 isn't the limit you suggest. It's actually true of every other 1st-level spell in the game that also doesn't scale for every other class in the game. ;-)



Not really.

THP for boldness or transformation is a bonus to which the healing bonus of a spell is irrelevant. If I'm not using higher level slots for healing elixir's then the THP from that elixir is irrelevant to higher level healing spells I cast. If the random elixir's are healing it's just free bonus healing not using a slot.

The only competition is in slot usage for 1st-level healing spells like cure wounds or healing word, and I would either:
  1. Use whichever give me a better advantage at the time, or;
  2. Use the elixir to allow me to prepare a different spell instead of doubling up. That increases my options and just prep something other than cure wounds.



That's the standard for similar abilities. Empowered evocation only allows for one damage roll too for example. Most other spellcasters get no bonus at all or only apply the bonus to cantrips and wait to a higher level to get the bonus. This isn't a weak point because it's slightly better than most casters even if it isn't agonizing blast.



I don't follow this one. I get that it's more times per day for a bigger bonus based on a single stat but proficiency bonus doesn't significantly change that outside of less need for the INT investment because there's no cost at all to proficiency bonus.



That spell can work with some builds but it doesn't work well compared to extra attack (armorer, battle smith) and creates a MAD condition that didn't exist (alchemist, artillerist) prior to going with that build. Band-aiding the self-imposed MAD with infusions is a big opportunity cost on infusions learned and used.



It's not but for some reason someone will compare it to a fighter with precision attack, sharpshooter, and crossbow expert. It's not great damage either, tbf, but it's better than basic cantrip damage. Basic cantrip damage is not impressive, however, over extra attacks.



So can other spells that use the bonus action. Sanctuary or healing word are bonus action spells, for example. At low levels it's spells like heat metal or flaming sphere or expeditious retreat. At high levels it's animate objects or Bigby's hand.

There are plenty of spells that use that bonus action. Just because battle smiths and artillerists have a good built in feature doesn't mean other artificers cannot make good use of that action. Just because the bonus action isn't being used for damage doesn't mean it's not being used effectively. ;-)



Wait for the SSI too. It opens up opportunities.



Not without concentration, using a higher level slot, and limiting mobility and where the wizard can move. The flight elixir not using concentration means the alchemist could be using Tasha's caustic brew while also flying and playing pew pew with cantrips.

Concentration is a pretty big limitation to bypass. Elixir's bypass concentration and the SSI works around it a bit.



Here's the thing: the random roll doesn't matter because if the player wants to create those opportunities he/she/they will just spend the slot to make it happen.

This is what I find playing alchemists over other artificers:
  • They spend the bonus action on a wider variety of options. Those options don't cease to exist for other artificers but they tend to focus in other areas. It's a bit of a variation on decision paralysis.
  • Elixirs that replicate spells means not needing to prepare those spells. Alchemists will prepare a different spell instead. For example, levitate and alter self are both on the artificer spell list. Either the other subclasses give up those options and only the alchemist carries them, or they prepare those spells and the alchemist prepares something else they would lose out on.
  • Similar to elixirs, restorative reagents means the artificer doesn't need to prepare lesser restoration or use a slot to cast it. That's a spell other artificers either give up or prepare, and slots they use when it comes up that alchemists spend on something else.
  • Elixirs are definitely not as efficient as armor benefits, cannons, or steel defenders.
My 2cents. :)
I have the feeling, you interpreted some of my points wrong, which might have happened by adressing them line by line.

To make it easier:
I think the alchemist has some hidden gems in their arsenal, but I think, some things could have been a bit more impactful.
I generally don't like abilities that scale overproportional with ability scores (flash of genious) , nor do I like abilities that actively work against each other (healing bonus for spells, but not potions... why not just a bonus to healing in general?) .
I also don't like the feeling of having wasted ressources, even if it is not absolutely a waste. (Why not increase the duration of potions that were created with a higher level slot?)
 

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