scruffygrognard
Adventurer
For ease of playing or DMing... Castles & Crusades or Basic Fantasy Roleplaying (which is a retroclone of Basic D&D with ascending AC and cleaned up rules).
Best edition for new players: pick any two
- Thread starter amnuxoll
- Start date
UnknownAtThisTime
First Post
I honestly can not fathom this statement.
I would have said 4e can create a version of quite literally any concept one could conceive! (the ironic part being that this annoys me about it,
)
Stormonu
Legend
If you have a knowledgeable DM 4E can support new players, but I think overall it has so many fiddly bits that it gets intimidating very quickly. Even the recent Red Box seemed "hefty" to me as far as rules & fiddly bits went.
Overall, I'd rank the Moldvay/Mentzer D&D sets as the best introductory games for D&D.
Overall, I'd rank the Moldvay/Mentzer D&D sets as the best introductory games for D&D.
JRRNeiklot
First Post
Becmi
1e
1e
TheAuldGrump
First Post
Yeah, I would have to agree that it is the old Moldvay Basic.
Rules Cyclopaedia (ooh look, mangled schpelling...) works too, but for introducing new players, yeah, Basic.
I've introduced folks through 3.X, and through Pathfinder, but Basic was easiest.
The Auld Grump
Rules Cyclopaedia (ooh look, mangled schpelling...) works too, but for introducing new players, yeah, Basic.
I've introduced folks through 3.X, and through Pathfinder, but Basic was easiest.
The Auld Grump
Keldryn
Adventurer
Basic D&D is still the best
For introducing new players to RPGs, Basic D&D would be my chioce. Either of the 1981 or 1983 sets would be a great place to start; I've never played the later ones such as the "black box" set, but I hear good things about those as well.
The important part is that the game doesn't overwhelm the new players with too much at once. The Basic D&D rules are pretty short, and character creation is very quick. The lethality of the game might be a big turn-off however, and low-level magic-users might be boring to play unless the DM creates opportunities for them to shine when they've already cast their one or two spells per day.
Asking a new player to read the bulk of a 300-page rulebook has a good chance of turning them off the game completely. Even asking a new player to read up on their class and race and a 30-page combat chapter may feel like too much work unless the new player is already keen on learning this stuff.
I feel that 4e does have a tendency to overwhelm new players, as I've seen it with my own eyes. The player of a first-level character has the following abilities to wrap his or her head around, all at once:
In addition to being familiar with all of a character's powers, new players also need to quickly come to terms with:
This is a lot to throw at a new player of a 1st-level character, and they need to get a handle on all of this quickly, as it only goes up from there. Due to the design mantra of "no dead levels," characters get a new power and/or feat virtually every level until they hit paragon tier and they start swapping out powers instead of just adding them. Assuming the player is new to RPGs in general, it is best for the DM or an experienced player to just create the character for the new player, selecting the most intuitive and least fiddly powers and feats with static bonuses.
Essentials does help a bit in this, as the Slayer is easily the simplest character in the game. The player has a slightly smaller list of abilities to learn:
The player still has to learn all of the other concepts mentioned previously as well. None of the Slayer's powers have effects which need to be tracked by the player, but leader characters are still likely to be granting the Slayer temporary HP or a bonus to attack or defense that won't be the same every round.
Compare that to a Basic D&D Fighter, where the player needs to know that his or her character can:
Now, this is not an exclusive list of what the character can *do* so much as it is a list of things that the character can do that you need to understand the rules for.
The player also needs to understand:
There's a world of difference there. Even a more complicated Basic character, such as an Elf, doesn't need to add a whole lot to those lists.
And that's my major issue with 4th Edition -- it has a wonderfully streamlined and robust core engine, but every player gets half a dozen exceptions (powers) to contend with as a 1st-level character. On top of that, players (including the DM) need to keep track of status conditions, marks, quarries, curse targets, bonuses or penalties to attacks/damage/defenses, and ongoing damage which are designed in such a way that when combined result in a different set of battlefield modifiers each and every round.
Some new players will probably really enjoy this level of crunch, but for a lot of new players it will be overwhelming and feel like too much work.
For introducing new players to RPGs, Basic D&D would be my chioce. Either of the 1981 or 1983 sets would be a great place to start; I've never played the later ones such as the "black box" set, but I hear good things about those as well.
The important part is that the game doesn't overwhelm the new players with too much at once. The Basic D&D rules are pretty short, and character creation is very quick. The lethality of the game might be a big turn-off however, and low-level magic-users might be boring to play unless the DM creates opportunities for them to shine when they've already cast their one or two spells per day.
Asking a new player to read the bulk of a 300-page rulebook has a good chance of turning them off the game completely. Even asking a new player to read up on their class and race and a 30-page combat chapter may feel like too much work unless the new player is already keen on learning this stuff.
I feel that 4e does have a tendency to overwhelm new players, as I've seen it with my own eyes. The player of a first-level character has the following abilities to wrap his or her head around, all at once:
- basic attacks (melee and ranged)
- two at-will attack powers, which for melee classes tend to be a basic attack with a minor additional effect
- one encounter attack power from his or her class
- often (but not always) an encounter utility power from his or her race
- one daily attack power
- second wind, which is essentially an encounter utility power
- action points
In addition to being familiar with all of a character's powers, new players also need to quickly come to terms with:
- hit points, healing surges, and temporary hit points as distinct but conceptually similar measures of "how much damage can my character take" and tracking them all separately
- opportunity attacks and what triggers them
- triggered actions in general
- tracking conditions and bonuses/penalties which change from round to round. This was a big one for the new players in my group.
- skills
This is a lot to throw at a new player of a 1st-level character, and they need to get a handle on all of this quickly, as it only goes up from there. Due to the design mantra of "no dead levels," characters get a new power and/or feat virtually every level until they hit paragon tier and they start swapping out powers instead of just adding them. Assuming the player is new to RPGs in general, it is best for the DM or an experienced player to just create the character for the new player, selecting the most intuitive and least fiddly powers and feats with static bonuses.
Essentials does help a bit in this, as the Slayer is easily the simplest character in the game. The player has a slightly smaller list of abilities to learn:
- basic attacks (melee and ranged)
- two stances which can be changed at-will that modify basic attacks. Some stances are simpler than others
- one Power Strike encounter power, triggered by a successful hit
- often (but not always) an encounter utility power from his or her race
- second wind, which is essentially an encounter utility power
- action points
The player still has to learn all of the other concepts mentioned previously as well. None of the Slayer's powers have effects which need to be tracked by the player, but leader characters are still likely to be granting the Slayer temporary HP or a bonus to attack or defense that won't be the same every round.
Compare that to a Basic D&D Fighter, where the player needs to know that his or her character can:
- attack a monster with a melee weapon, which is virtually always 1d20 + str mod unless they have a magic sword
- attack with a missle weapon, which is virtually always 1d20 + dex mod, unless they have a magic weapon
Now, this is not an exclusive list of what the character can *do* so much as it is a list of things that the character can do that you need to understand the rules for.
The player also needs to understand:
- when the character gets hit, subtract the damage from Hit Points. When they reach 0, the character goes down
- if you turn your back to a monster and try to run away while engaged in melee, it gets a free attack on you
- withdraw = slowly back away from a monster so that it doesn't get a free attack on you
There's a world of difference there. Even a more complicated Basic character, such as an Elf, doesn't need to add a whole lot to those lists.
And that's my major issue with 4th Edition -- it has a wonderfully streamlined and robust core engine, but every player gets half a dozen exceptions (powers) to contend with as a 1st-level character. On top of that, players (including the DM) need to keep track of status conditions, marks, quarries, curse targets, bonuses or penalties to attacks/damage/defenses, and ongoing damage which are designed in such a way that when combined result in a different set of battlefield modifiers each and every round.
Some new players will probably really enjoy this level of crunch, but for a lot of new players it will be overwhelming and feel like too much work.
I think we need to give "new players" a bit of credit here, it's not like they look at the powers on their character sheet and burst into tears at how horrible and complex it is.
I mean hell, have you played some of the video games out there? Some of them make 4e look like a walk in the park.
I mean hell, have you played some of the video games out there? Some of them make 4e look like a walk in the park.
Agree with rogueattorney - one of the basic sets. I learned on the 1991 basic set, but that's hard to find. The others are all over eBay.
Of course, the OD&D clone Swords & Wizardry White Box would work pretty well too (available for free electronically). Introduces all the basic concepts and puts players in a good spot to move to other editions with more detail (if they even want to, heh).
Of course, the OD&D clone Swords & Wizardry White Box would work pretty well too (available for free electronically). Introduces all the basic concepts and puts players in a good spot to move to other editions with more detail (if they even want to, heh).
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