Best edition for new players: pick any two

Argyle King

Legend
Well my original post has been derailed a bit. I suppose it's my fault for rambling.

My intended discussion topic was: Have others observed a significantly lower long-term retention rate when you start new players with 4e? Or is it just me?


I'd agree with that. One thing which makes me scratch my head is that my other main rpg is considered a complex behemoth by many in the community, yet I've found that new players seem to pick it up quicker than D&D 4E.

I mean, people understand the basic idea of "ok, you have these slots which have powers in them, and you can use them this often." However, it seems like the overall structure of the game doesn't seem to really make sense until they've played it for a while.
 

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samursus

Explorer
Concepts I've been unable to create satisfactorily/effectively with 4e:
- A melee-focused warlock who does not understand magic or the source of his power and has below average intelligence.

Others have answered your other concepts quite well, so I just wanted to point out that the Hexblade is exactly this. My Fey Pact Hexblade has a 10 Int and no training in Arcana. I could have made the Int 8 and not have it affect my build at all. Oh, and he's not a sub-optimal build... I would say in the top tier of Striker-dom.
 

Ahnehnois

First Post
There was seen to be a need to change 3rd edition to be more beginner friendly. Having briefly played 2e, I found the 3e core rulebooks highly readable, intuitive, concise, and engaging. DMing a game for the first time was easy once I had read them. The tools existed to do anything I wanted.

Sure, when you throw in all the other books and houserules and variants it gets complicated. But saying that the game isn't beginner friendly because of that...it's like watching Roger Federer play tennis and saying tennis isn't beginner friendly.

In short, if I were introducing a new player it would be with 3.5 rules. I like Dragon Age or one of the other simpler rpgs as an alternative.
 

Nikosandros

Golden Procrastinator
IMO, the best introductory edition is the Mentzer's Basic Set. Moldvay might be better as a reference, but Mentzer is much better for learning the game.
 

MortonStromgal

First Post
In my XP new players who are say over 25 or under 13 tend to like simpler games where as from about 13-25 players like the crunch or at leased don't mind it. I think the two big factors are life experience and time. When your young you don't have a lot of experience and once you start a family or dive into a career you don't have a lot of time. When I was a young lad I liked the Lone Wolf books and Man to Man. As a teenager I enjoyed Traveller, GURPS with Advanced Combat, Shadowrun, D&D 2e with all the option books. Now I like FATE, Dragon Age, Unknown Armies.
 

MrMyth

First Post
Concepts I've been unable to create satisfactorily/effectively with 4e:
- A melee-focused warlock who does not understand magic or the source of his power and has below average intelligence.
- A character who has great physical resiliance (read: has significantly more hit points than normal for his class).
- A true pacifist cleric: has no powers that deal damage, only powers that aid allies.
- Also, any character concept with more than 3 classes. Example: barbarian, sorcerer, cleric.

In all cases, you have to shoehorn it in somehow or make up house rules to handle it.

Maybe when all the game had was the PHB, but these days? All of the above are perfectly viable characters to make.

Character 1: Let's go with a star pact warlock. Focus on Con and Cha, with low Int and Wis to represent a crazy guy who channels magic from unknown sources without really understanding how. At-wills include Eldritch Strike, his main method of fighting. For Encounters and Daily powers, pick up various interrupts which hurt enemies who attack him - both assisting him in melee, and representing this untamed power raging forth whenever his focus is broken.

Character 2: Choose a class. Then, take a high Con, and feats like Toughness (extra hp), Swift Recovery, Enduring Mountain (increase surge value), Disciple of Stone (gain temps when you surge), Durable (more surges). Maybe hunt down other feats that give you resistance to damage or the like. Focus on items that boost hp and surge value.

For example, let's take a level 6 Human Rogue. Your average rogue with 12 Con will have 49 hitpoints, and 7 Healing Surges which heal him for 12 hp. If you instead focus on Con as your secondary stat (starting with 16 or so), and take the above feats, you will have 59 hitpoints, and 11 Healing Surges which heal for 19 hp and provide 5 temps.

Now, those numbers may look relatively close, but have a huge impact in actual play. Your surges are about twice as effective - that means you can probably survive twice as much damage in each fight. And having half again as many surges means you can get in half again as many fights each day. You aren't as deadly, sure, but will probably be plenty effective, and physical resilience has definitely been acquired.

Character 3: As others have mentioned, pacifist characters are now perfectly viable. Both clerics and wizards have entire builds focused around this sort of thing.

Character 4: This is relatively doable, between Hybrid and Multiclassing rules. You often can add the flavor of a fourth or fifth class with the right feats, skills, paragon paths and other choices. And, of course, Bards and Half-elves expand your options even more.

So, what specific 4 class build are you looking for?

Barbarian/Sorcerer/Cleric is pretty trivial. Hybrid Barbarian and Sorcerer, with a focus on Str and Cha. Multiclass Cleric and pick up Str and Cha powers. You've got divine healing, brute strength, and powerful magic explosions.

Character concept also includes being a thief? Have a decent Dex and pick up skills like Acrobatics, Thievery and Stealth via backgrounds and skill training. Pick up feats like Evasion and Uncanny Dodge. Pick up appropriate skill powers. All you really are missing is backstab/sneak attack - choose some feats that give benefits when you have combat advantage or are hidden, and you're pretty much complete.

Also want to be something of a ranger? Pick up nature and some nature based feats and skill powers. Grab Ritual Casting somewhere and pick up appropriate nature rituals. Maybe have the Barbarian build that wields two weapons. I'm confident there should be at least one Barbarian Paragon Path focused around being outdoorsy.

Now, the more concepts you try to fit in, the more spread out your feats and powers become, sure. But that's inevitable if you try to be a jack of all trades. You can still definitely end up with a character that is competent at a variety of roles and has the appropriate flavor of several classes. You've got a character who can sneak around and stab people in the back, track them through the wilderness and commune with nature, heal his fallen allies with divine power, fly into a berserker rage and tear foes limb from limb, and even hurl blasts of flame down upon his foes.

Done and done.
 
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amnuxoll

First Post
This is like being irate that I can't make a wizard with below average intelligence in any D&D game.

I disagree. A 3.5e sorcerer fits this bill perfectly.

Not only are these both possible (for the first one, choose a big beefy guy with a lot of HP and toughness and pound on the constitution or, in other words, this is the Warden class), but the second is to some degree popular enough to have its own handbook.

You've misread my post. Take two 10th level wardens. Give one average hp for his class. Do your best to pump up the hp of the other. Result: marginal different in hp.



This one's easier so long as you separate class from character.

Voila! Shoehorn. Thanks but...no thanks.


I guess what I'm saying is, character concepts don't require classes.
I fully agree. My point is that the 4e rules make it a lot harder.
 

amnuxoll

First Post
But ultimately any RPG system constrains the PCs that can be built within it - that is part of what a system does. For me, then, the question isn't "Are there character concepts that 4e doesn't support very well" but "Does it support a viable range of character concepts". And the answer to this question surely is Yes.

Agreed. But some systems restrict you more than others. I feel like 4e is the worst offender of the dozen or so systems I've played.
 

amnuxoll

First Post
Well, you can choose a below-average Int as it's the secondary for Warlocks, and have a high Cha/Con and use Eldritch Blast/Strike. Warlock is a ranged striker though so there are not a ton of melee powers. Just like barbarians don't have a ton (any?) ranged powers.

This is a shoehorn. No melee weapon? Also the skills are all wrong. Arcana? Streetwise? No go.

Well, A Con-focused Warlock, A summoner Wizard or Evocation Mage (Con secondary), Battlemind, two of the Warden builds, etc. Plus grab Toughness and Durable feats, good to go.

All of these offer only a marginal difference in hit points. Durable doesn't help at all.

Pretty easy to do. I've got one in a PbP I run here. His only damage power is Sacred Flame, but he doesn't use it.

It's been a while since I've tried this. I'm glad 4e almost allows it since it's not that uncommon of a concept.


Hybrid barbarian|sorcerer, MC cleric. You could put 14's in either Str/Cha/Wis (and grab a race that bumps two of the three) and put a 16 in the non-racial bump to have 3 16's for the main stats, but understand that you've chosen a super-MAD PC. Like making a Cleric/Wizard/Sorcerer in 3e. Sure you can do it, but you won't be super-effective

This is actually a really good illustration of my point. You can do much better with most other systems IMO.
 

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