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Best edition for new players: pick any two
- Thread starter amnuxoll
- Start date
amnuxoll
First Post
Sorry, I frustrated folks with my earlier posts. Let me start over.
Say I've been hearing about Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms and I'm excited to create a Sentinel druid. I love the kind of "nature's warrior" type of concept. I'm thinking a "leopard man" someone who can hang out in trees and pounce upon enemies. He slashes at enemies with dual claw weapons on both hands. He can also draw upon his leopard kinship to camoflage himself in natural terrain.
I rush out to FLGS and buy the book and start reading.
Heartbreak #1: I have to have Wis and Con not Str and Dex. If I want to be a great pouncer I need Strength for Athletics (climbing) and melee. I also want Dexterity because it fits the "leopard" concept. I want to dodge blows with agility. Instead I have to boost my Con to increase my AC. Disappointing.
Heartbreak #2: I'm not allowed to be trained in the Acrobatics or Stealth (for hanging out in trees and hiding from foes) without spending two of my precious feats.
Heartbreak #3: I have to have an animal companion. I don't want one. I want to be the leopard man not the leopard's buddy. Then it gets worse, my only animal companion choices: wolf or bear. What a disaster! If I don't use the animal companion ability it'll make my powers less effective. I guess I can take wolf and pretend it's a leopard...a leopard that can't climb or pounce or hide.
Heartbreak #4: Healing Word. Healing isn't part of my character concept at all. Why do I have to be a healer? I don't want that.
Heartbreak #5: No at will power that really feels like a "pounce" attack. I guess I'll settle for Dyanamic Assault with my "leopard" wolf.
Heartbreak #6: No knacks fit my character. I'd love to have something that lets me climb trees easily or become concealed in natural terrain.
Heartbreaks #7+: I keep finding that there are no powers that fit my character. No support for dual wielding. Nothing "pounce-like." Cat's Grace is nice but it's a minor consolation. Thousand Faces is neat since I can actually be a leopard man...until I realize it has no mechanical benefit or play with a DM who will only let me assume humanoid forms that are in the rulebooks.
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Now before you run out and say "You've chosen the wrong class for you concept!" let me promise you that I can give you a list of heartbreaks for the ranger, barbarian the original druid etc. in the same way. Also, remember my OP, I'm a newb player with a brand new book that I just bought at the FLGS. I'm not aware of the other options. I'm certainly not ready for multiclassing or hybrid characters.
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Now let's create the same character in 3.5e using its druid class (again, no multiclassing). Most of the heartbreaks are missing:
#1: I can safely have Dex and Str and forsake Wis and Con. Sure, my offensive spells will have low saving throws but I won't be casting offensive spells. I'll be casting spells on myself that make me a leopard man like the Jump spell for leaping onto foes or into trees.
#2: Alas, 3.5e does little better here with the cross-class requirement: I can have the skill but I can't be as good at it as I would like.
#3: I still have to have an animal companion, but my choices are much richer. Look! At 4th level I can have a leopard.
#4: No need to ever memorize a heal spell.
#5/6/7+: Well, there are no "powers" in 3.5e but there are feats that let me attack as part of jump or wield dual claw weapons effectively. There are also spells that give me Cat's Grace and the ability to Camouflage myself. Finally, at 5th level I actually get to turn into a leopard. Woot!
Is 3.5e perfect? No. It has other flaws that also make it prohibitive to new players. In particular, I'm sure you'll agree that the 4e leopard-man is going to be more "optimal" than the 3.5e one. But I contend that the 3.5e did a demonstrably better job at modeling the concept. As others in this thread have pointed out, there are other systems that do this even better than 3.5e.
I believe this lack of flexibility in 4e is the reason that new players lose interest much sooner. They want a game that supports their imagination and 4e is not doing it well.
Does this illustrate my point better?
:AMN:
Say I've been hearing about Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms and I'm excited to create a Sentinel druid. I love the kind of "nature's warrior" type of concept. I'm thinking a "leopard man" someone who can hang out in trees and pounce upon enemies. He slashes at enemies with dual claw weapons on both hands. He can also draw upon his leopard kinship to camoflage himself in natural terrain.
I rush out to FLGS and buy the book and start reading.
Heartbreak #1: I have to have Wis and Con not Str and Dex. If I want to be a great pouncer I need Strength for Athletics (climbing) and melee. I also want Dexterity because it fits the "leopard" concept. I want to dodge blows with agility. Instead I have to boost my Con to increase my AC. Disappointing.
Heartbreak #2: I'm not allowed to be trained in the Acrobatics or Stealth (for hanging out in trees and hiding from foes) without spending two of my precious feats.
Heartbreak #3: I have to have an animal companion. I don't want one. I want to be the leopard man not the leopard's buddy. Then it gets worse, my only animal companion choices: wolf or bear. What a disaster! If I don't use the animal companion ability it'll make my powers less effective. I guess I can take wolf and pretend it's a leopard...a leopard that can't climb or pounce or hide.
Heartbreak #4: Healing Word. Healing isn't part of my character concept at all. Why do I have to be a healer? I don't want that.
Heartbreak #5: No at will power that really feels like a "pounce" attack. I guess I'll settle for Dyanamic Assault with my "leopard" wolf.
Heartbreak #6: No knacks fit my character. I'd love to have something that lets me climb trees easily or become concealed in natural terrain.
Heartbreaks #7+: I keep finding that there are no powers that fit my character. No support for dual wielding. Nothing "pounce-like." Cat's Grace is nice but it's a minor consolation. Thousand Faces is neat since I can actually be a leopard man...until I realize it has no mechanical benefit or play with a DM who will only let me assume humanoid forms that are in the rulebooks.
--------
Now before you run out and say "You've chosen the wrong class for you concept!" let me promise you that I can give you a list of heartbreaks for the ranger, barbarian the original druid etc. in the same way. Also, remember my OP, I'm a newb player with a brand new book that I just bought at the FLGS. I'm not aware of the other options. I'm certainly not ready for multiclassing or hybrid characters.
---------
Now let's create the same character in 3.5e using its druid class (again, no multiclassing). Most of the heartbreaks are missing:
#1: I can safely have Dex and Str and forsake Wis and Con. Sure, my offensive spells will have low saving throws but I won't be casting offensive spells. I'll be casting spells on myself that make me a leopard man like the Jump spell for leaping onto foes or into trees.
#2: Alas, 3.5e does little better here with the cross-class requirement: I can have the skill but I can't be as good at it as I would like.
#3: I still have to have an animal companion, but my choices are much richer. Look! At 4th level I can have a leopard.
#4: No need to ever memorize a heal spell.
#5/6/7+: Well, there are no "powers" in 3.5e but there are feats that let me attack as part of jump or wield dual claw weapons effectively. There are also spells that give me Cat's Grace and the ability to Camouflage myself. Finally, at 5th level I actually get to turn into a leopard. Woot!
Is 3.5e perfect? No. It has other flaws that also make it prohibitive to new players. In particular, I'm sure you'll agree that the 4e leopard-man is going to be more "optimal" than the 3.5e one. But I contend that the 3.5e did a demonstrably better job at modeling the concept. As others in this thread have pointed out, there are other systems that do this even better than 3.5e.
I believe this lack of flexibility in 4e is the reason that new players lose interest much sooner. They want a game that supports their imagination and 4e is not doing it well.
Does this illustrate my point better?
:AMN:
amnuxoll
First Post
Hey, those feats are precious!
Also, turns out Hexblade has all Cha powers. A melee warlock needs Con not Cha.
MichaelSomething
Legend
Well, if you really wanted to play that concept, I would custom build you a new 4th Edition class! However, it seems that you have very specific desires so you'll gonna have to give me a lot of information if you want me to make what exactly you want. Chance are, I would just take the Ranger class and modify somewhat and that would match what you would want. With whatever action you would want to take, chances are there is either already an existing power I could just recycle or I could create a new power wholecloth if one doesn't already exist.
I already starting writing it up a bit. Should I actually go through it and write it all up if you're that interested?
Also, I think this OOTS comic represents the conflict on what people think a "class" represents.
Then again, if you're so unhappy with how a class based system can't represent your concept, you're better off going with a point buy system.
Um.
You do realize you literally just described the standard 4e druid, right? Just go Predator Druid. Boom. Done.
As for skills, that's what backgrounds excel at.
Your 3e example really doesn't work, like, at all. You say you want to abandon wisdom for dexterity, but your base stats are meaningless once you start wild shaping. Your character could have all the dexterity in the world, but once you wildshape, your stats change.
Then there's the problem of wanting to be a leopard for the entire game. Certainly it can work the first few levels, but by level 15, being a leopard means you're a non-entity.
In fact, you know what? I'll make that character.
Predator Druid
Race: We'll go with elf, though certainly it isn't a neccesity. Change if you want.
Stats: 13 strength, 11 constitution (you said you didn't care about Con!), 16 Dexterity, 10 intelligence, 16 wisdom, 8 charisma.
This seems to fit the character you had set out - strength and dexterity were important with dexterity being the most important, and you never mentioned intelligence and charisma so I assume that's low in importance.
Background: For elf, Wild Elf seems best as it fits the flavor of what you want. For any other class, grab an assortment of backgrounds as you want and grab either acrobatics or stealth as a class skill.
Skills: Nature, Athletics, Acrobatics, Perception. We grab Stealth from our feat.
Feat: Warrior of the Wild. Literally named after what you want to be. Not only gives us Hunter's Quarry (leopards are hunters after all) it also gives you Stealth.
Powers: Savage Rend is not only an excellent mechanical choice, it fits your leopard man perfectly. Secondly, we'll take Pounce - while not the most powerful, it's still not too bad, we have Savage Rend as our MBA, and Pouncing is, again, literally what you want to do. Your non-beast at will could be anything that best fits, but you'll be in beast form the most
For your encounter, we have Darting Bite, which admittingly isn't that great. but, as seen in your 3e example, what matters is the thematics, and this fits it.
The daily more or less has to be Savage Frenzy, which again just fits your thematic style of the vicious leopard perfectly.
Your free ritual is Traveler's Camouflage, which does exactly what you'd think.
In your 3.x example you couldn't be a leopard until level 5 - and then only for five hours a day. You couldn't be really good in those so important skills because they were cross class. You felt you had to pour your stats into strength or dexterity, but it gives you literally zero benefit due to how wildshape works. You have a ton of class abilities you don't want or need or will use in any way.
In the 4e example, level 1, you're a leopard as much as you want. You're completely trained in those skills and you're pretty darn good at them too. The only ability that doesn't fit you to a tee is your one non-beast at-will. You have camouflage.
The 4e version fits your ideal character better in every way over the 3e one - and that's at level 1.
You do realize you literally just described the standard 4e druid, right? Just go Predator Druid. Boom. Done.
As for skills, that's what backgrounds excel at.
Your 3e example really doesn't work, like, at all. You say you want to abandon wisdom for dexterity, but your base stats are meaningless once you start wild shaping. Your character could have all the dexterity in the world, but once you wildshape, your stats change.
Then there's the problem of wanting to be a leopard for the entire game. Certainly it can work the first few levels, but by level 15, being a leopard means you're a non-entity.
In fact, you know what? I'll make that character.
Predator Druid
Race: We'll go with elf, though certainly it isn't a neccesity. Change if you want.
Stats: 13 strength, 11 constitution (you said you didn't care about Con!), 16 Dexterity, 10 intelligence, 16 wisdom, 8 charisma.
This seems to fit the character you had set out - strength and dexterity were important with dexterity being the most important, and you never mentioned intelligence and charisma so I assume that's low in importance.
Background: For elf, Wild Elf seems best as it fits the flavor of what you want. For any other class, grab an assortment of backgrounds as you want and grab either acrobatics or stealth as a class skill.
Skills: Nature, Athletics, Acrobatics, Perception. We grab Stealth from our feat.
Feat: Warrior of the Wild. Literally named after what you want to be. Not only gives us Hunter's Quarry (leopards are hunters after all) it also gives you Stealth.
Powers: Savage Rend is not only an excellent mechanical choice, it fits your leopard man perfectly. Secondly, we'll take Pounce - while not the most powerful, it's still not too bad, we have Savage Rend as our MBA, and Pouncing is, again, literally what you want to do. Your non-beast at will could be anything that best fits, but you'll be in beast form the most
For your encounter, we have Darting Bite, which admittingly isn't that great. but, as seen in your 3e example, what matters is the thematics, and this fits it.
The daily more or less has to be Savage Frenzy, which again just fits your thematic style of the vicious leopard perfectly.
Your free ritual is Traveler's Camouflage, which does exactly what you'd think.
In your 3.x example you couldn't be a leopard until level 5 - and then only for five hours a day. You couldn't be really good in those so important skills because they were cross class. You felt you had to pour your stats into strength or dexterity, but it gives you literally zero benefit due to how wildshape works. You have a ton of class abilities you don't want or need or will use in any way.
In the 4e example, level 1, you're a leopard as much as you want. You're completely trained in those skills and you're pretty darn good at them too. The only ability that doesn't fit you to a tee is your one non-beast at-will. You have camouflage.
The 4e version fits your ideal character better in every way over the 3e one - and that's at level 1.
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delericho
Legend
I disagree. For new players, the ability to create unique character concepts is rather overrated. They need to be able to quickly build some classic archetypes and get playing.
Once they've played a bit (define "a bit" to suit), they'll probably have more of a handle on the notion of playing a unique character, and can explore the options. And 4e has a lot of options.
Ultimately, for a class-based system to support "creating any character you can dream of", the system either needs to handwave an awful lot (Bob and Joe are mechanically identical, but they're totally different characters), or it needs a huge number of options.
I do certainly believe 4e could be better for introducing the game to new players, and then growing with them. But then, that's been true of every edition and every starter set since the end of the boxed sets from the BECMI D&D (not the Rules Cyclopedia), and even that was not without its flaws.
As for your stated topic, picking any two editions as "best" for a newbie: it depends on whether there's someone to walk them through getting started.
If there isn't, I say going with the current edition (4e for now) is the best way to go. There's just so much more support out there, especially on the messageboards.
If there is an "old hand" around to show them the ropes, then the best edition is that "old hand's" edition of choice. That's the one he'll inevitably be most passionate about, almost certainly be the one he's most expert in, and will be the one he's best able to introduce to new players.
Olgar Shiverstone
Legend
BECMI is the easiest edition to teach players to create characters, IMO, since the number of creation chocies is fewer. 3E and 4E character creation is far more complex.
But if you start with pre-gens and skip past character creation to get directly into play, 3E or 4E are easier to pick up (the whole d20+modifier thing) and about on par with BECMI.
3E/4E are harder for players to master, in the long run, but that's probably a feature, not a bug.
But if you start with pre-gens and skip past character creation to get directly into play, 3E or 4E are easier to pick up (the whole d20+modifier thing) and about on par with BECMI.
3E/4E are harder for players to master, in the long run, but that's probably a feature, not a bug.
No offense, but... "You've chosen the wrong class for your concept!"
You can easily create a character that fits this guy, pretty much perfectly, as a ranger. Or probably a decent representation as a barbarian. You may have had other builds that didn't work for them, but I can't imagine them not fitting what you've described right here.
The problem I'm seeing with a lot of your complaints, again, comes down not to 4E being unable to fit your concepts, but it not representing them in an identical mechanical way to a previous edition.
The 4E druid is a shapeshifting caster of primal magic, or a nature priest with an animal companion. Complaining that you can't easily build him as a melee warrior who lurks in trees is, well, like complaining that you couldn't easily do that with a 3rd Edition wizard. Sure, I imagine you can find a way to make it work, but that obviously isn't the best concept for the job.
A new player isn't going to walk into the game and say, "Hey, I want to play a 3.5 melee druid!" - and then be disappointed when he can't. He'll walk in and say, "Hey, I want to play a guy who turns into a leopard" (and they'll direct him to the standard druid) or "Hey, I want to play a guy who thinks he's a leopard and pounces on people from the trees!" (and they'll direct him to the ranger or barbarian.)
That's the main issue here - I don't think new players will find the options lacking. The only ones who really do are those who are looking for specific mechanical constructs they had in former editions. Character concepts themselves are pretty robust, and 4E - these days - has a lot of support for many, many different ideas.
We've shown ways to build pretty much everything you've asked for. The potential is absolutely there. Now, a new players isn't always going to know all these options and how to put it together - but I think, worst case, will still end up with something close to his idea that is effective at what he wants it to do. There is much less chance of trying to build an interesting idea and ending up with something that has significant flaws in actual play.
Just to give an example, here's our 'leopard man'. The Essentials Ranger is actually a great fit, so let's see how this looks a few levels in:
Level 7 Human Scout
Str: 16, Con: 11, Dex: 18, Int: 10, Wis: 14, Cha: 8
AC: 22, Fort: 19, Ref: 20, Will: 17
Hp: 53, Surges: 7
Trained Skills: Nature +9, Endurance +8, Acrobatics +12, Athletics +11, Perception +9, Stealth +12
Features: Attack Finesse, Flashing Blade Mastery
Feats: Light Blade Expertise, Camouflage, Skill Power, Skill Swap, Armor Finesse
At-Will Stances: Aspect of the Regal Lion, Aspect of the Lurking Spider, Aspect of the Charging Ram
Powers:
At-Will: Dual Weapon Attack, Perfect Balance
Encounter: Power Strike 2/enc, Reactive Shift, Terrain Advantage, Scrambling Climb, Natural Terrain Understanding
Knacks: Ambush Expertise, Mountain Guide, Wilderness Tracker
Equipment: Feral Hide Armor +2, Tigerclaw Gauntlets +2, Safewing Amulet +1, Bracers of Mighty Striking, Cat's-Eye Headband, Boots of Adept Charging
Final result? A character who runs around in animal hide, tears into enemies with feral claws, is exceptional at climbing trees, laying in ambush, and hunting prey. He is an effective character in combat, capable of using terrain to his advantage, who is deadly at pouncing upon his foes.
This dude is pretty much the perfect representation of what you described. And the base class itself is found in the same book in which you were disappointed in the Sentinel Druid! Even if you ignore the options above that come from other sources, he still has plenty of built-in abilities to help with the skills and tactics that seem to fit your concept.
I just don't see any problem with the system that it doesn't let you build a druid as a "dual-wielding nature warrior without wild-shape, animal companion, or healing magic" - when you already have multiple classes and builds that cover that concept. Ignoring those options and focusing on what the Druid is not just seems nonsensical.
Level 7 Human Scout
Str: 16, Con: 11, Dex: 18, Int: 10, Wis: 14, Cha: 8
AC: 22, Fort: 19, Ref: 20, Will: 17
Hp: 53, Surges: 7
Trained Skills: Nature +9, Endurance +8, Acrobatics +12, Athletics +11, Perception +9, Stealth +12
Features: Attack Finesse, Flashing Blade Mastery
Feats: Light Blade Expertise, Camouflage, Skill Power, Skill Swap, Armor Finesse
At-Will Stances: Aspect of the Regal Lion, Aspect of the Lurking Spider, Aspect of the Charging Ram
Powers:
At-Will: Dual Weapon Attack, Perfect Balance
Encounter: Power Strike 2/enc, Reactive Shift, Terrain Advantage, Scrambling Climb, Natural Terrain Understanding
Knacks: Ambush Expertise, Mountain Guide, Wilderness Tracker
Equipment: Feral Hide Armor +2, Tigerclaw Gauntlets +2, Safewing Amulet +1, Bracers of Mighty Striking, Cat's-Eye Headband, Boots of Adept Charging
Final result? A character who runs around in animal hide, tears into enemies with feral claws, is exceptional at climbing trees, laying in ambush, and hunting prey. He is an effective character in combat, capable of using terrain to his advantage, who is deadly at pouncing upon his foes.
This dude is pretty much the perfect representation of what you described. And the base class itself is found in the same book in which you were disappointed in the Sentinel Druid! Even if you ignore the options above that come from other sources, he still has plenty of built-in abilities to help with the skills and tactics that seem to fit your concept.
I just don't see any problem with the system that it doesn't let you build a druid as a "dual-wielding nature warrior without wild-shape, animal companion, or healing magic" - when you already have multiple classes and builds that cover that concept. Ignoring those options and focusing on what the Druid is not just seems nonsensical.
thedungeondelver
Adventurer
I'd start out with original D&D, then move to J. Eric Holmes' edit of Basic D&D.
I'd go on to AD&D, afterwards, but original and Basic would be the two I'd start with.
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