Best edition for new players: pick any two

[amnuxoll]

Others have answered your other concepts quite well

I'm not satisfied with anything that's been posted so far. I have more confidence in the statement now, not less.

I just wanted to point out that the Hexblade is exactly this. My Fey Pact Hexblade has a 10 Int and no training in Arcana. I could have made the Int 8 and not have it affect my build at all. Oh, and he's not a sub-optimal build... I would say in the top tier of Striker-dom.

I have to admit I haven't tried hexblade. You may be right. Can you take skills like Endurance and Athletics?

 

[amnuxoll]

There was seen to be a need to change 3rd edition to be more beginner friendly. Having briefly played 2e, I found the 3e core rulebooks highly readable, intuitive, concise, and engaging. DMing a game for the first time was easy once I had read them. The tools existed to do anything I wanted.

I agree, the transition from 2e to 3e made the game much more accessible. But there are a *lot* of rules in 3.5e and I've seen the beginner get that "deer in headlights" look playing it quite often.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I have to admit I haven't tried hexblade. You may be right. Can you take skills like Endurance and Athletics?

Can you not take any skill, with but a single feat?

 

[amnuxoll]

Character 1: Let's go with a star pact warlock. Focus on Con and Cha, with low Int and Wis to represent a crazy guy who channels magic from unknown sources without really understanding how. At-wills include Eldritch Strike, his main method of fighting. For Encounters and Daily powers, pick up various interrupts which hurt enemies who attack him - both assisting him in melee, and representing this untamed power raging forth whenever his focus is broken.

No decent melee attacks. Wrong skills and severely limited power selection due to low int.

Character 2: Choose a class. Then, take a high Con, and feats like Toughness (extra hp), Swift Recovery, Enduring Mountain (increase surge value), Disciple of Stone (gain temps when you surge), Durable (more surges). Maybe hunt down other feats that give you resistance to damage or the like. Focus on items that boost hp and surge value.

Result: modest, not remarkable, improvement in hit points. BUT I like this build. The temp hit points make it interesting. It's certainly not something a beginner could find on his own, though.

Character 3: As others have mentioned, pacifist characters are now perfectly viable. Both clerics and wizards have entire builds focused around this sort of thing.

But none completely without damage dealing powers. And also the power selection is severely limited. It's not fun to build.

Character 4: This is relatively doable, between Hybrid and Multiclassing rules. You often can add the flavor of a fourth or fifth class with the right feats, skills, paragon paths and other choices. And, of course, Bards and Half-elves expand your options even more.

These rules allow you to sort of do it but it's ugly, and hard to play. You are limited in what powers you can have and when. Overall, a big shoehorn.

Done and done.

Agreed, you've made a good effort here but I think it proves my point as much as yours.

 

[The Human Target]

This thread has a very misleading title.

So I guess your question is- Does 4E have a lower or higher retention rate of new players than older editions?

Seems about the same to me.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Agreed, you've made a good effort here but I think it proves my point as much as yours.

The only point you've made is "My god, goalposts can enter outer space."

You wanted a warlock with low int. Wait no, it has to be a warlock with endurance and athletics. Wait no, he also has to have all the fighter abilities.

Ok, here's my challenge: make that character in any other edition.

In fact, you gave three examples. Let's see those in other editions. Show us what you want.

 

[Argyle King]

The only point you've made is "My god, goalposts can enter outer space."

You wanted a warlock with low int. Wait no, it has to be a warlock with endurance and athletics. Wait no, he also has to have all the fighter abilities.

Ok, here's my challenge: make that character in any other edition.

In fact, you gave three examples. Let's see those in other editions. Show us what you want.

Is it cheating if I use a different game?

 

[juboke]

In order I would say …

i. Moldvay Basic
ii. Mentzer Basic

Mentzer does have the “Choose Your Own Adventure Path” which is designed for the complete beginner. However the Moldvay rule book is more concise and better organized than the two Mentzer rule books (there a Player’s Guide and a DM Guide).

I wouldn’t hesitate recommending either, both are excellent.

 

[MrMyth]

No decent melee attacks. Wrong skills and severely limited power selection due to low int.

What? None of those statements are true. Your primary attack is a very potent melee attack with (presumably) a big weapon. You can easily get the skills you want. You have a ton of choices for your powers without your low Int.

I'm really confused here. Where are you getting these claims?

Result: modest, not remarkable, improvement in hit points. BUT I like this build. The temp hit points make it interesting. It's certainly not something a beginner could find on his own, though.

I don't know about that. Essentials actually makes it easier, grouping together 'durability feats' in one section. But outside of that... what's hard about looking for feats that boost hp and surges and then taking them?

Your main complaint seems to be that the hp bump isn't that big. You're missing that health in 4E is comprised of hp, and surges and surge value.

This is at the heart of a lot of complaints about 4E being 'unable to make a character concept'. Your actual character concept? A dude who is physically tougher than other dudes like him? Is absolutely doable.

The problem is that you don't actually care about the character concept. Instead, you are insisting on "has more hp". Your demand isn't for it to fulfill your concept, but instead, to be able to replicate a mechanical build of an earlier edition.

Like I said, the build I had can take generally twice as much damage in a fight and get through half as many fights in a day, based on raw durability alone. How does that not fulfill your concept?

But none completely without damage dealing powers. And also the power selection is severely limited. It's not fun to build.

Yes, you can make builds completely without damage dealing powers. Selection is indeed limited, but not nonexistent. In what way is it not fun to build? Have you actually looked at these options or powers?

These rules allow you to sort of do it but it's ugly, and hard to play. You are limited in what powers you can have and when. Overall, a big shoehorn.

Why?

Are you genuinely saying that a "Barbarian 1 / Cleric 1 / Sorcerer 1 / Rogue 1 / Ranger 1" is a smooth and beautiful concept that perfectly fits together?

But, for some reason, a level 5 hybrid Barbarian|Sorcerer, who is multiclassed Cleric and whose is trained at Stealth, Thievery and Nature... is "ugly, and hard to play"?

I don't see it. I don't see shoehorning. Sub-optimal? Sure. But you can absolutely blend together diverse concepts and have a viable character - a far more viable character than some builds in the past. You have a wide range of powers, feats and other options that can help you flesh out that concept. Skill powers especially are a great way for that.

What limits are you referring to? When did you try playing this character, and in what way was it hard to play?

I'm seeing a lot of objections, but not many actual reasons for them.

 

[Odhanan]

Two approaches come to mind:

I. Holmes/AD&D Path.

I'd run a few games using First Edition AD&D.

Assuming the person is interested to run the game, I would then give him or her Holmes D&D. From there, the person running the game could either upgrade to the full AD&D game, or use Meepo's Holmes Companion instead.

II. The OD&D Path.

Run a few games for the newbie using OD&D.

Then present him/her with a copy of Swords & Wizardry White Box Edition. Then present to that person the different options available to upgrade the game, if needed at all. OD&D Supplements, Swords & Wizardry Core Rules, Swords & Wizardry Complete Rulebook, and let the new DM build his/her own D&D from there.