Best epic rules

[Dragonblade]

The problem with any epic level rule system is that hard caps are just unrealistic. They also discourage me from even playing in the first place. I want to envision my PC advancing and growing, both in a stat sense and a role-play sense, essentially forever. I have been playing D&D for around 20 years and I'm frankly tired of constantly starting over games.

I want a DM who can handle character growth well beyond 20 levels and still come up with challenging and exciting adventures. Sadly, most DM's lack the skill to DM at the level.

If I could give my wish list of things I'd like to see in an epic level ruleset it would be as follows:

1) Potentially unlimited advancement - No hard cap where my character hits a wall. Level cap systems have always bothered me. "So now that my mage is at level 20 or 25, he can never learn another skill? Or learn to swing a sword or stay out of harms way better than he can now?"

2) Realistic advancement - This is difficult. A 30th level character should be demonstratably more powerful than a 20th level character, yet regardless of level, never should bonuses be so high that dice no longer matter even when approaching something crazy like level 100. How to implement this? I have no idea....

3) As characters gain level, there should still be diversity - For example, no two characters, regardless of level, should ever look the same stat-wise unless the players intentionally design it that way. In other words there should be an unlimited ability to optimize your character on into high level without bumping into any of the other considerations.

4) Ease of play - There should be a plethora of distinct and interesting high level options but a DM should be able to run a 50th level game with little more prep time than a 10th level game. Likewise, a player should be able to build a 50th level character with little more time than it takes to make a 10th level character.

How to implement all of these seemingly mutually exclusive desires together? I have no idea... But that is what I'd like to see in an epic level ruleset....

 

[Pants]

I don't consider AE's level limits 'epic' at all. It just places the cap arbitrarily higher.

I haven't seen an epic system for D&D that I've liked yet, though I've only seen the 3e version.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

UK's Ascension.

 

[Treebore]

The problem with any epic level rule system is that hard caps are just unrealistic. They also discourage me from even playing in the first place. I want to envision my PC advancing and growing, both in a stat sense and a role-play sense, essentially forever. I have been playing D&D for around 20 years and I'm frankly tired of constantly starting over games.

I want a DM who can handle character growth well beyond 20 levels and still come up with challenging and exciting adventures. Sadly, most DM's lack the skill to DM at the level.

If I could give my wish list of things I'd like to see in an epic level ruleset it would be as follows:

1) Potentially unlimited advancement - No hard cap where my character hits a wall. Level cap systems have always bothered me. "So now that my mage is at level 20 or 25, he can never learn another skill? Or learn to swing a sword or stay out of harms way better than he can now?"

2) Realistic advancement - This is difficult. A 30th level character should be demonstratably more powerful than a 20th level character, yet regardless of level, never should bonuses be so high that dice no longer matter even when approaching something crazy like level 100. How to implement this? I have no idea....

3) As characters gain level, there should still be diversity - For example, no two characters, regardless of level, should ever look the same stat-wise unless the players intentionally design it that way. In other words there should be an unlimited ability to optimize your character on into high level without bumping into any of the other considerations.

4) Ease of play - There should be a plethora of distinct and interesting high level options but a DM should be able to run a 50th level game with little more prep time than a 10th level game. Likewise, a player should be able to build a 50th level character with little more time than it takes to make a 10th level character.

How to implement all of these seemingly mutually exclusive desires together? I have no idea... But that is what I'd like to see in an epic level ruleset....

First I want to agree with what you are saying, overall. What I disagree with is your definition of unrealistic, actually probably just your useage of it in this context. Humanity, realisticly, proves everyday it is incapable of unlimited advancement. So to say that unlimited advancement not being allowed is unrealistic, well, I think you see why they conflict, in my opinion anyways.

So I see "realism" actually being unsupportive of the beginning of your reasoning. Just say, "I prefer for the races to have unlimited potential, and therefore unlimited advancement in their classes."

As for your points, the only way I see to fix things in 3E is to change the power scale from level 1 on up. Or do like OD&D did and have you be "reborn" as a first level immortal, and reset the power scale that way. Then have it be a gradual and slow increase, but substantial when looked at in 10 level increments.

 

[Dragonblade]

First I want to agree with what you are saying, overall. What I disagree with is your definition of unrealistic, actually probably just your useage of it in this context. Humanity, realisticly, proves everyday it is incapable of unlimited advancement. So to say that unlimited advancement not being allowed is unrealistic, well, I think you see why they conflict, in my opinion anyways.

So I see "realism" actually being unsupportive of the beginning of your reasoning. Just say, "I prefer for the races to have unlimited potential, and therefore unlimited advancement in their classes."

As for your points, the only way I see to fix things in 3E is to change the power scale from level 1 on up. Or do like OD&D did and have you be "reborn" as a first level immortal, and reset the power scale that way. Then have it be a gradual and slow increase, but substantial when looked at in 10 level increments.

I agree that "realistic" is not the most accurate term. But I couldn't think of anything that better conveyed my general meaning.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I think the word you were after might be "plausible" or "believable."

I've been tempted to go back to WotC's earliest gaming book, Primal Order, and see how it translates to d20. I've used it for deities and the like but haven't considered its use in non-divine settings. I doubt it will help though. I think the problem is that the mechanic based on the 20-sider is the big weakness. There simply isn't the granularity. It's why earlier versions of Shadowrun fell apart; the exploding dice and large dice pools rapidly made the "impossible" tests fairly predictable.

Essentially, any system that doesn't allow for the "one-in-a-million" chance for minimally-skilled individuals or has an unrealistic chance of failure for basic tasks amoung the highly skilled will result in far too many "edge" cases at high level play. D20 tries to avoid these problems with nat20s and "taking10" which expands the system's "sweet spot" but doesn't eliminate the core problem.