Best of the Best - Tactical Warlord.

[darkdragoon]

Initiative isn't -that- important for a Warlord.

Leaders should be setting the table. That generally means making their attacks and positioning first so everybody else gets to enjoy a buff to them or a penalty on the enemy.

 

[DracoSuave]

Leaders should be setting the table. That generally means making their attacks and positioning first so everybody else gets to enjoy a buff to them or a penalty on the enemy.

And which abilities of a Warlord are so important they a) must be done in the first round, and b) must be done before the party acts?

Again, I covered the big ones above.

I get what you're saying but the class doesn't actually play that way in practice. Better to wait until the enemy's moved and then strike. That first round isn't as important for you as it is for a controller.

 

[Kzach]

Swordmages, too. You did include the setting-specific classes in your polls...

Yeah, as I mentioned in one of the other threads, the idea has sortof evolved since I first decided to do them. A couple of friends and I were discussing the idea and at first the idea was that anything legal from the Character Builder should be included. As you may notice, the poll options are the exact same order as they're presented in the Character Builder 'cause I copied them directly from it

But eventually we all decided that it would be best to limit things to the PHB's 'cause they're 'core'. Whether that's a good or bad idea I guess is up for debate but I do think they're more representative of the iconic ideal we're going for.

*shrug* YMMV

 

[Kzach]

Leaders should be setting the table. That generally means making their attacks and positioning first so everybody else gets to enjoy a buff to them or a penalty on the enemy.

I have a shielding cleric that I really enjoy playing and is focused on healing and buffing the party or debuffing the enemies. I purposely put his 8 into Dexterity because I felt that, if anything, going last was an advantage for him because tactically he can use his powers best when the enemy has been engaged and you can't heal someone until AFTER they've been damaged

 

[darkdragoon]

Early on, not much. Although I doubt anyone will complain about having Int to attack or getting moved a little closer to their prey. Later on, you have Battle Captain and thus Cry Havoc. By the time you get to Warmaster you may not need much more than the first round anyway.

 

[DracoSuave]

Good builds aren't good if they need level 11 to be good.

 

[tiornys]

Yeah, but is Mastery a great enough benefit to deny yourself other more accurate possibilities?

I'm just saying that being at a penalty to attack for 20 levels just to break even at 21 isn't necessarily a compelling reason. A good optimized character build should get good after a minimum of levels. You should see a compelling case for it before paragon.

If I were comparing Mastery directly with something for the Tiefling, I'd agree. However, what I'm doing here is comparing the benefits of Dex vs. Cha; Mastery is just a piece of that package, and I think it's more valuable than the benefits of Cha.

And your 'offense' as a TacLord is:

Tactical Presence. Passive. Initiative is irrelevant.
Commander's Strike. Requires another player to go first. Initiative is counter-productive.
Inspiring Word. Reactive. You're using this before the monsters?

Initiative isn't -that- important for a Warlord. You want to go after the monsters for the most part. It's not often you want to go first. That first round isn't a lot of upside.

I disagree; see below.

Tieflings tho make up for their lack of strength with:

Rebuke: More accuracy and damage.
Bloodhunt: More accuracy and therefore damage.
Fiery Weapon: More accuracy and damage.

If the Taclord is an offensive leader, then isn't Moar Offense better?

Bloodhunt won't come up as often as you want it too; TacLords tend to use their encounter/daily powers to set the table for attacking by giving big boosts to an ally, and then they give that ally a bunch of attacks before the boost wears off. That makes it's relatively rare for the TacLord to be directly attacking a bloodied enemy.

You meant Infernal Wrath, not Fiery Rebuke, but you're right that it's an excellent power for a TacLord. However, I think Fey Step is competitive in power. I almost always use Fey Step to set up flanks that would be awkward/impossible without it, which results in a higher to-hit bonus than Infernal Wrath would grant.

Hellfire Blood is in fact awesome, and most of the reason why Tiefling is anywhere close to the Eladrin's league. However, once you account the added cost of being locked into a Flaming weapon, I think Eladrin Soldier is comparable in power. From there, I think Tactical Inspiration and Fey Tactics outclass anything else the Tiefling has access to.

And yeah, Tieflings make better Resourceful Warlords than they do Tactical. But they make better Tactical than most other choices, of which Eladrin is included.

They do make good TacLords, competitive with Humans IMO, but Eladrin are still the best; despite the lack of a Str boost, they outclass even Genasi.

And which abilities of a Warlord are so important they a) must be done in the first round, and b) must be done before the party acts?

Again, I covered the big ones above.

I get what you're saying but the class doesn't actually play that way in practice. Better to wait until the enemy's moved and then strike. That first round isn't as important for you as it is for a controller.

The TacLord doesn't much care about beating his party members, although it can certainly help, but he does care, a lot, about beating the enemy. Between attack boosts, extra movement, and extra attacks, TacLords can greatly enhance the party's ability to disrupt the enemy's formation and/or tactics. TacLords are the most proactive of the leaders, and they are masters at orchestrating round 1 novas. Taking out enemies before they get any actions is vastly superior to allowing them to take even a single turn.

t~

 

[doctorhook]

I voted Eladrin, because they're pretty amazing TacLords. However, I seriously doubt the decision not to include Genasi in this poll.

What were you thinking, Kzach?

Genasi are not iconic to 4e, dammit! They're Forgotten Realms! The Warforged is Eberron!

Christ, next people will be wanting the Thri-kreen as an option for the ranger poll 'cause the preview has them Strength and Dexterity bonuses!

Enough!

*grumble*grumble*grumble*

That's BS and you know it, Kzach. Genasi are no less core than Doppelgangers are, and Warforged aren't any less core than Drow. As for "iconic" to 4E though, I don't even know what the heck that's supposed to mean. (I certainly wouldn't call Dwarves iconic to 4E, for example.)

You arbitrarily cut out races, and in doing so got rid of what would have been one of the front-runners in your poll. It's a bit like asking, "What's the most important country in the world?" and including the USA but not China in the options -- it doesn't make any sense, bro.

EDIT: Also, where can I find this Thri-Kreen preview? I hadn't heard about it until now.

I have to agree with Kzach on not including the Gensai. They're FR. This survey is to determine an iconic party makeup. FR isn't iconic, it's FR.

They're not FR, they're core. This is very old news. Do we have to turn this into a "Defining Core" thread? I thought we finally finished with that ridiculousness last year.

So perhaps I should've included all thirty-four races.

I counted them all recently, but I only got to around 24 raceS, including what's expected in PH3. How did you find 34 race?

Nevermind, I just checked the Compendium, and realized that you included monster races in your count.

Also, why didn't you include any of the D&DI races in your poll? You're missing Gnolls, Minotaurs, Revenants, and also Githzerai and Wilden, all in addition to Genasi, Drow, Warforged, Changelings, and Kalashtars.

EDIT: After having a look at the results, maybe I've been too hard on you, Kzach; most of the races aren't even getting a single vote, so adding more options wouldn't have improved it. You probably should have just offered Eladrin, Genasi, Dragonborn, Tiefling, Human, Half-Elf, Warforged, and Other.

 

[Kzach]

Blah, blah, blah.

You realise I don't care, right?