D&D 5E Best Way to Challenge this Sorcadin, without high level spells

[overgeeked]

Yeah, I recall looking at the monster maths tables – specifically from Forge of Foes, but those are very similar to the 2014 5e DMG. Not accounting for %chance to hit*, monster damage per "point" of CR drops off steadily as CR increases. There's this brief spike of lethality at 1st and maybe 2nd level, and then a slow drop off of the damage coming at the PCs from any given monster.

When you have PCs with variable defenses – some are good at AC, some are good at X save or Y save, others maybe have resistances – but everyone has some weaknesses, that is easy enough to deal with. It's when there is one "ultra-defense" PC that the GM has to make extra effort to include things that can be threatening to that PC.

* % chance to hit is an important factor, I just didn't get too far into those weeds because then there's tons of assumptions about PC Armor Class that need to be made.

That's why when I designed my own version of that chart based on the Blog of Holding post, I corrected that drop off in damage. I kept the early level lethality throughout.

There's also assumptions about who will be attacking whom that aren't reflected in the pure math. Ranged attackers have lower stats across the board, whereas melee attackers have higher stats across the board. Monster roles, something 4E did wonderfully, was thrown out with the bathwater in 5E. But they kept the stat disparity because it makes sense.

 

[TwoSix]

Yeah, I recall looking at the monster maths tables – specifically from Forge of Foes, but those are very similar to the 2014 5e DMG. Not accounting for %chance to hit*, monster damage per "point" of CR drops off steadily as CR increases. There's this brief spike of lethality at 1st and maybe 2nd level, and then a slow drop off of the damage coming at the PCs from any given monster.

When you have PCs with variable defenses – some are good at AC, some are good at X save or Y save, others maybe have resistances – but everyone has some weaknesses, that is easy enough to deal with. It's when there is one "ultra-defense" PC that the GM has to make extra effort to include things that can be threatening to that PC.

* % chance to hit is an important factor, I just didn't get too far into those weeds because then there's tons of assumptions about PC Armor Class that need to be made.

For sure. At a very broad level, to make sure a fight is interesting, I eyeball the monsters to be able to do roughly 10 damage per level assuming an AC of 16 + character's proficiency bonus (scale this up by about 25% for every PC past 4).

So for a 10th level party of 4 PCs, the monster's attacks (total monsters in an encounter, not each!) should be able to do on average 100 damage against AC 20.

 

[Shardstone]

I would probably only use really lethal monsters if the other PCs were being given magical items to compensate for the power difference between them and the Sorcadin, whatever that may look like. If the party didn't really care that the Sorcadin was OP, I'd instead shake up my encounters to use some things Quickleaf mentioned, like terrain and aura/environmental damage effects, and then also have a lot more skill checks + saving throws in my encounters. I'd still let enemies attack and miss the Sorcadin though, just so they feel good about their fatty AC, but yeah, I'd rely more on the environment + magic + enemy tricks as opposed to sheer lethality, depending on the composition of the player types.

 

[J-H]

How many combat encounters are you running per day? The Sorcadin only has 3-4 1st level slots for Shield. If you have 5 3-round fights, that's only one casting of Shield per battle.

Enemies with high grapples: Crocodiles, constrictor snakes, large dinosaurs, giants, trolls, dragons, etc. Give them Athletics proficiency.
Also look at knockbacks, intelligence saves, and terrain that causes "issues" like Entangle, Grease, Spike Growth, etc. Those don't have attack rolls and the effects persist even on a save.
3D movement (archers on platforms, multiple floors, etc.).

 

[overgeeked]

How many combat encounters are you running per day? The Sorcadin only has 3-4 1st level slots for Shield. If you have 5 3-round fights, that's only one casting of Shield per battle.

Yep. That's one thing that was glossed over. The PC does not have AC27. The PC has the shield spell which, as a reaction temporarily boosts their AC to 27 for the remainder of that round. The PC has AC22 and a limited number of spell slots. Chances are they'll burn most of them for smites, not shields.

 

[grimmgoose]

How many combat encounters are you running per day? The Sorcadin only has 3-4 1st level slots for Shield. If you have 5 3-round fights, that's only one casting of Shield per battle.

This is the answer. Like it or not, 5E is a resource management game. You're going to have problems if you only do one fight per Long Rest, and any "solutions" in that framework will either be half-measures, or the player will feel targeted (because let's be honest, they will be).

The best thing I ever did with my 5E prep is that I stopped planning encounters, and instead prepped a series of encounters.

You don't 'just' fight the goblin war camp, you:

• fight the goblin scouts, who lead you to...
• the flimsy walls of the goblin camp, where you fight the guards...
• which leads you to the final fight with the goblin boss inside the camp

Those three fights will expend the resources you need to challenge the players. It's honestly the best tool you have in your toolbelt.

 

[Stormonu]

A couple beholders probably would bring him down a notch or two. Areas of anti-magic or wild magic might have similar effects on making the Sorcadin's life more difficult. Stunning fist monks, backed up by acolytes casting bless and others working in tandem could get additive bonuses to rival the Sorcadin.

But really, limiting yourself to 1st or 2nd level effects while the Sorcadin might be rocking upwards of 5th level spell effects is really handicapping yourself unnecessarily - anything good enough for the goose is good enough for the gander.

I guess the big thing is find something that bring the Sorcadin down a notch or two, but not make it so that the rest of the party gets unfairly stomped.

 

[Clint_L]

One thing I try to remember, when I have a player who makes heavy use of the shield spell, is to take advantage of the fact that they almost never have a reaction available. Mobs should maneuver around them freely to take out the weaker members in the back.

 

[ECMO3]

I'm running a 10th level campaign, and one of my players finally did, they went a Sorcadin.

So I have a character with a 27 AC with shield, +3 add to all saving throws (but often its a +5 to saves to due to 2 other paladins in the party, which also includes resistance to spells). They also have a really high grapple check so they use that to throw down on a lot of the monsters. And throw in some silvery barbs and absorb elements for even more resistance and chaos bringing.

Now here's the trick, this particular game is low magic (no spells higher than 2nd level). I can have some monsters with higher magic because that's how the monster rolls, but I can't have dungeons with high level spells, npcs casting wall of force, etc etc.


Anyone have any good recommendations on good traps, npcs, or monsters to use against this kind of character?

And lastly, lets not get into any debates about changing shield, multiclassing, etc. The character is build has been running for a bit now, I don't want to go back and make new houserules.

Breath Drinkers work really good against Paladins, it is better after 11th level because the Paladin can't turn off Improved Divine Smite and because of this the breath Drinker heals 1d8 with every hit the Paladin makes, which makes it essentially a -5 to damage. So you may want to save them. Also it is probably tough to land the Drink breath, but it also takes an action for the Paladin to break the grapple, so you are not really behind by using ot.

After that Solar Dargons.

Also keep in mind unless they have the Warcaster feat they can not cast the Shield spell or Absorb Elements while holding a Weapon and a Shield.

 

[Stalker0]

The Sorcadin only has 3-4 1st level slots for Shield.

Let me double check my math here to make sure I'm not doing multiclassing wrong.

Its a Paladin 8 / Sorc 2 (10th level).
That's 4 1st level slots for the paladin, 3 (+1 when expending the sorc points) for the sorc, so 8 1st level slots a day.


I generally run 2-3 combats a day (I never run the 6-8 encounters that are the norm). And yes I fully know that makes certain builds like this stronger, but yeah I'm just never ever going to run that much combat in my games.

I will note that I do tell the paladin they are hit and then they choose to use shield, but don't tell them the numbers so they always have to guess the shield will help (though so far it always has!) But even with 22 AC they don't always get hit in a round, so often 1 shield (which effectively lasts for two rounds in some cases) can last an entire fight.