Bestiary Gripe

[James Jacobs]

Because the rules about natural attacks are different from those in 3.5. Bites, gores and claws are all considered primary attacks (page 302 of the Bestiary).

Correct. And since what makes a natural attack a secondary attack is now the type of attack and not when the attack happens, there's not really a need for a separate "attack" line. If a monster makes a single attack as a standard action, it can choose any one of its available attacks (a claw or a bite or a wing buffet or whatever) and make that one attack. The damage and attack roll don't change.

 

[Sylrae]

Bing! We have a winnah!

More importantly, I'm not sure I get the gist of the complaint. If I'm DMing, and I say a shark bites a PC to establish a grapple, then that's what the shark does. The player can argue logic, real-worldisms, and game-whatnot until he's blue in the face, but it won't change what's happening.

Me: The shark swims in and [roll dice] chomps! down on your leg, [roll dice] which is now trapped in its fang-filled jaws! Ooh! Scary!

Player: Nuh-uh! The rules don't say sharks can do that.

Me: My rules say otherwise. Bob, it's your turn now.

I could *by PFRAW* have the shark make a grapple, but then he's not attacking that round. I think the two should work together as I mentioned. You make a good point. Issue comes from players in my game running off laptops so we dont have to carry all the books to game/pass them around. In game only I have physical books, but they all look at the PDFs. =/.

The issue, is that if the players are thinking the shark cant grapple and bite in the same round, they act differently than if they think otherwise. So I let it slide that one time, for that reason. If he knew that the shark could grab and hold on, he wouldnt have jumped in the water. He told me so outright that if it comes up again he'll avoid it.

I'm not sure how much communication is really needed. My take as a DM is simple. I'm the DM. I tell you what happens. You tell me what your characters do. Rinse. Repeat.

"But how do I develop my character and tactics to work within your game?" a player may ask.

Well, you just develop your character how you want. If you treat this as a player-versus-player game, you're going to get upset. My game is you against the conflicts of the story, not you versus me.

So, if I want sharks to have the Grab ability, I don't need a good reason. Or, I guess more to my point, my want for a shark to have the Grab ability is a good reason.

To move back on-topic about Bestiary griping, this relates to my gripe about manuals of monsters: too many players read them and then think the book gets to dictate the parameters of the story. My games don't work that way.

YMMV, of course. This is about goodrightfun versus badwrongfun.

Again, good points.



I tend to try to be clear on telling the players how things work, so they DONT expect everythign to work like PFRAW. if I forgot to cover something or I missed it, then I tend to add it to an evergrowing list of changes.

 

[pawsplay]

I'm not sure how much communication is really needed. My take as a DM is simple. I'm the DM. I tell you what happens. You tell me what your characters do. Rinse. Repeat.

WWFU. From my own perspective, I think I would be asking, "Why use Pathfinder for that style of game?" Also, this sounds like a perfect recipe for getting into an argument with a player who either is interested in the Pathfinder rules or interested in sharks.

 

[Mark Chance]

"Why use Pathfinder for that style of game?"

Pathfinder seems just fine for the style of game in which neither published stat blocks nor the players get to dictate the DM's limits.

Also, this sounds like a perfect recipe for getting into an argument with a player....

I neither argue with players nor play with arguers. If someone shows up for my game and doesn't like the style of play, he's welcome to leave and find another group.

 

[Nellisir]

Pathfinder seems just fine for the style of game in which neither published stat blocks nor the players get to dictate the DM's limits.

I neither argue with players nor play with arguers. If someone shows up for my game and doesn't like the style of play, he's welcome to leave and find another group.

This.

but it's worth pointing out that I adapt the challenges to the players much more than I expect the players to be able to adapt to my every random whim. I don't randomly roll for every encounter; I match party level to EL & etc; I create encounters the players will find interesting and the characters will find challenging. You can't "game" a good DM.

And if I do change some crucial element of the rules that affects the players, of course I tell them. That's...sort of a given, from my point of view. I find it a bit puzzling someone would assume otherwise, actually.

 

[Treebore]

RPG "rules" are just suggested guidelines, always have been according to the guys who originally created D&D, and I will always play with that spirit, attitude, thought, philosophy, or whatever you wish to call it in mind.

Combine it with whats written in my sig area and you have how I go about adjudicating games as well as playing them

As for the shark issue, the only time they do not shake and tear is when they do not bite through the object in the first place. Only Whale Sharks, Basking Sharks, and Mega Mouth sharks are the only ones I am aware of, or remembering at this time, that do not do the shaking, since their teeth are so small many do not even consider them to be teeth.

Now the Tiger Shark doesn't "Grapple", but they do a sawing chew kind of motion, so they aren't letting go of you either.

Plus remember that a good number of shark jaws extend out a bit and pull in, and repeat, to help them bite and swallow.

So to describe shark bites as a "grapple attack" is fairly accurate enough as to definitely be logical.

Since there are hundreds of species of sharks, ranging in size from about 5 inches (Cookie Cutter Shark) to over to over 41 feet (Whale Shark) it isn't easy to generalize what sharks do in terms of eating. But saying sharks of a certain size, with the most recognized type of shark teeth is certainly a reasonable and logical to allow them to essentially "grapple".

 

[Mark Chance]

but it's worth pointing out that I adapt the challenges to the players much more than I expect the players to be able to adapt to my every random whim.

Precisely. For example, if a player's character has focused on grappling, a shark with Grab becomes an even better idea.

And if I do change some crucial element of the rules that affects the players, of course I tell them.

Precisely again. In my next campaign, for example, I'm getting rid of attacks of opportunity and implementing a set of "universal feats" for all characters. Obviously the players need to know these changes in advance.

Adding Grab to a shark, however, doesn't qualify as a crucial element change that requires prior notification. I could provide such information more appropriately as a benefit of certain knowledge skills possessed by the characters, again adapting the encounter to the characters.

 

[Celtavian]

re

Sharks attack a variety of ways. You've read the stories. Some people get a bite out of them as the shark tests the prey. When they eat they latch on and start chewing and tearing, not necessarily when they attack.

Wolves and dog packs tear at an opponent and try to pull them to the ground where they are easier to attack. That is incorporated for wolves in trip. You've seen war dogs and wolf packs attack prey and pull at them until they fall, then the entire pack starts biting and ripping.

Now I've seen lions truly grapple. They go for a part of the body, bite in, and latch on putting their weight on the opponent to bring them down. They usually try to grip the throat area to strangle the opponent. I was really surprised to see this as it is a pretty advanced fighting technique for what we would deem a stupid animal. Those lions are pretty vicious hunters.

Do what you feel is realistic. Don't let your players boss you around. Animals definitely have fighting techniques and your players shouldn't dicate them to you.

 

[pawsplay]

I'm not sure the bite-and-shake thing really qualifies as a grapple. Does it prevent a character from moving or using a weapon effectively? Could it not just be the shark hitting repeatedly using its high Str?

Edit: Also, "Quick, Robin! The Bat Shark Repellant!"

 

[Treebore]

I'm not sure the bite-and-shake thing really qualifies as a grapple. Does it prevent a character from moving or using a weapon effectively? Could it not just be the shark hitting repeatedly using its high Str?

Edit: Also, "Quick, Robin! The Bat Shark Repellant!"

Well, judging from the shark attacks I have seen caught on film and the written accounts I have read, mostly concerning the Indianapolis, everyone was busy screaming and dying, so were unable to attack. Si not only would I say it counts as a grapple, but its an Improved Grapple, no AoO.