Big Changes in ICv2's RPG Industry Charts, as Pathfinder Drops Off Before 2E's Release!

ICv2 has just released its Fall 2018 industry chart of the top selling hobby channel roleplaying games, and for the first time since the game launched, Pathfinder - no doubt affected by the impending release of Pathfinder 2E - is not in the top five!

1	Dungeons & Dragons	WotC
2	Legend of the Five Rings	FFG
3	Star Wars RPG	FFG
4	Starfinder	Paizo
5	Vampire	White Wolf

Pathfinder has been in the top 5 since it launched in 2009. Traditionally, it holds the #2 spot, just after D&D, although for three years from Spring 2011 to Summer 2014 it knocked D&D off its perch and claimed the top position. Since then, it's pretty much been D&D - Pathfinder - Star Wars, with the fourth and fifth positions battled over by the latest hotness.​

D&D dropped off the chart back in Spring 2014, just before D&D 5E launched. With Pathfinder 2 coming in August, this looks like the same effect.

In Pathfinder's absence, Fantasy Flight Games makes a strong showing with Legend of the Five Rings and Star Wars, and White Wolf's Vampire - despite the controversy, sneaks in at #5.

 

[trancejeremy]

Prior to 1987, people wanting to play a Star Wars RPGs tended to play Traveller. .

I dunno. Traveller was always vastly unsuited for Star Wars. In one of their early supplements, they published the stats for Luke Skywalker (as "Young Farmboy" and it basically was "Pilot — 2)

Traveller crashed in 1987 because it got killed off and replaced with "MegaTraveller" which wasn't very good (and not even done by Marc Miller) and not much like Classic Traveller in terms of rules or setting (they blew up the setting). Each later version of Traveller got worse and worse until Mongoose made their version, which was very much like Classic Traveller, and that turned out to be fairly popular.

 

[3catcircus]

I'm not shocked that pauzo dropped off the list. They'll be back when PF2e is released, but I don't think they'll have the same success for the same length of time with 2e.

I would much rather have seen paizo buy the rights to the Reflex System mechanics and use that for PF2e rather than the relatively b minor tweaks they've done to go from PF1e to 2e.

 

[mserabian]

All three of the original trilogy of movies (1977, 1980, 1983) had come out and were maintaining popularity through VHS and TV presentations. Star Wars was the most successful movie franchise ever, and had a massive stockpile of figures, toys, books and everything else booming in sales at the time the RPG came out in 1987.

Actually 1987 was a low point in the Star Wars franchise.

Return of the Jedi was in theaters in 1983.
Star Wars was rereleased on VHS in 1985.
Star Wars would not be in the theaters again until 1997 with the Special Editions.

The Marvel Star Wars comic was canceled in 1986 due to low sales. There were no new comics until Dark Horse Comics started publishing them until 1991.
The last Star Was novel was 1983's, Lando Calrissian and the Starcave of ThonBoka. The Star Wars novels from Bantam which created the expanded universe did not begin publishing until 1991.
Toys manufacturing had been stopped as well. Quote from wikipedia: "By mid-1985, the demand for Star Wars merchandise had slowed and Kenner discontinued production of its action figures."

So Star Wars merchandising and penetration was at its lowest point ever when West End took a chance with publishing the RPG.

 

[TrippyHippy]

Actually 1987 was a low point in the Star Wars franchise.

Return of the Jedi was in theaters in 1983.
Star Wars was rereleased on VHS in 1985.
Star Wars would not be in the theaters again until 1997 with the Special Editions.

The Marvel Star Wars comic was canceled in 1986 due to low sales. There were no new comics until Dark Horse Comics started publishing them until 1991.
The last Star Was novel was 1983's, Lando Calrissian and the Starcave of ThonBoka. The Star Wars novels from Bantam which created the expanded universe did not begin publishing until 1991.
Toys manufacturing had been stopped as well. Quote from wikipedia: "By mid-1985, the demand for Star Wars merchandise had slowed and Kenner discontinued production of its action figures."

So Star Wars merchandising and penetration was at its lowest point ever when West End took a chance with publishing the RPG.

In RPG terms, Star Wars was still a massive license in 1987. The brand was so ingrained in popular culture, that a whole generation of young boys especially grew up on the 'first wave' of Star Wars popularity. The 1987 RPG was very much at the head of the 'second wave'.

 

[Queer Venger]

I think PF should get comfortable sitting in the #2 spot; when they get back on the charts; its where they belong, right behind D&D ;-)

 

[Ash Mantle]

Unpopular opinion: Paizo should release a 5e version of Golarion and some of the associated APs. None of the people in the three gaming groups I am a part of are even remotely interested in PF2, and yes... several of us did play PF extensively for a couple of years. As others have said, Golarion is a great fantasy setting. Paizo was once a 3rd party publisher for D&D... why can't they return to that in some fashion?

I don't think that's an unpopular opinion, I think that'll be excellent for a lot of gaming groups (mine included)! It'll be awesome if Paizo could concurrently release 5e conversions of their past products, and present and future products.
However, as a caveat, Paizo would need to understand the mechanics, assumptions and reasoning behind 5e and Paizo's handle on mechanics has always been really up in the air. I love their writing and lore, especially when their lore was full of that pulp goodness, and more horror- and darker-themed, but their mechanics has always been disappointing in many ways.

 

[S'mon]

However, as a caveat, Paizo would need to understand the mechanics, assumptions and reasoning behind 5e

I don't think so - 5e is such a loose system. If I can convert-at-table PF APs to 5e using some simple formulae it should be easy enough for them to do the same. They don't even need to make their own stat blocks if they don't want to, they can just refer to official ones or reprint (eg) Kobold Press ones under licence.

 

[Ash Mantle]

I don't think so - 5e is such a loose system. If I can convert-at-table PF APs to 5e using some simple formulae it should be easy enough for them to do the same. They don't even need to make their own stat blocks if they don't want to, they can just refer to official ones or reprint (eg) Kobold Press ones under licence.

5e may be a loose system, but its mechanical foundations are extremely tight and everything functions rather well. The 3x edition systems and Pathfinder have no such tight foundations and are in fact designed with deliberate traps and poor choices in mind. I would argue it's easier comparatively to design in the 3x edition systems and Pathfinder because the designer can also introduce poor options in addition to the better additions (whether intentional by design or accidentally), while with 5e you need to have a better understanding of the underpinings and design decisions in that system.
And if Paizo have yet to figure out "good" design principles in their 10 year custodianship, especially where the classes are concerned, then that doesn't really bode too well, especially since unlike yourself they need to output this professionally. But it's true they can refer to official statblocks.

 

[S'mon]

5e may be a loose system, but its mechanical foundations are extremely tight and everything functions rather well. The 3x edition systems and Pathfinder have no such tight foundations and are in fact designed with deliberate traps and poor choices in mind. I would argue it's easier comparatively to design in the 3x edition systems and Pathfinder because the designer can also introduce poor options in addition to the better additions (whether intentional by design or accidentally), while with 5e you need to have a better understanding of the underpinings and design decisions in that system.
And if Paizo have yet to figure out "good" design principles in their 10 year custodianship, especially where the classes are concerned, then that doesn't really bode too well, especially since unlike yourself they need to output this professionally. But it's true they can refer to official statblocks.

I think you're saying that Paizo rules supplements written for 5e D&D would not be good.
I think you're right.

If I were them I'd not do that, I'd just issue 5e (or more likely dual stat 5e & PF2) conversions of my most popular 3e & PF1 APs. Single volume, like the Runelords & Crimson Throne 3e>PF ones; hardback if that makes the most financial sense, though a fat softback should be fine too. I'd publish them 2 a year, same rate as the current APs come out.

 

[Morrus]

5e may be a loose system, but its mechanical foundations are extremely tight and everything functions rather well. The 3x edition systems and Pathfinder have no such tight foundations and are in fact designed with deliberate traps and poor choices in mind. I would argue it's easier comparatively to design in the 3x edition systems and Pathfinder because the designer can also introduce poor options in addition to the better additions (whether intentional by design or accidentally), while with 5e you need to have a better understanding of the underpinings and design decisions in that system.
And if Paizo have yet to figure out "good" design principles in their 10 year custodianship, especially where the classes are concerned, then that doesn't really bode too well, especially since unlike yourself they need to output this professionally. But it's true they can refer to official statblocks.

Wow.

For the record, I disagree strongly with every single thing you said here.