Big combats take too much time for us.

[renau1g]

Rain of blows is a daily, and it can kill a max of 8 minions per round IF they're silly enough to surround him. Also note it doesn't work if he's dazed, stunned, or otherwise unable to make OAs.

Enlarged dragon breath could potentially kill 25 minions: but what are your minions doing piling up in a 5x5 square?

Two minions per round is not all that impressive, and if there are non-minion targets on the battlefield, the ranger isn't being as effective as he could be.

Effective minion use relies on the following:

Minions know they're minions. They're the cannon fodder, and they know it, and they don't really want to die.
1. They attempt to avoid being hit, even for tiny amounts of damage. Once they've seem the fighter start wildly flailing his weapons all about him, they're not going to go stand next to him.
2. They don't clump up. They know that area effect attacks exist, and try not to stand in 5x5 densely packed squares.
3. They go for the easy targets if they can. They try to gang up with more powerful foes if they can.

Minions don't fight on their own unless there's a massive amount of them.
1. Non-massive groups of minions will tend to scatter and flee combat looking for their superiors.
2. Massive groups will rapidly become non-massive, then see step 1.
3. Minions act to support non-minions. They'll block squares to prevent escapes, move to supply flanks etc.

Another tip for minions is use of Aid Another actions on attack rolls, especially to aid a standard monster.

 

[Vadriar]

Rain of blows is a daily, and it can kill a max of 8 minions per round IF they're silly enough to surround him. Also note it doesn't work if he's dazed, stunned, or otherwise unable to make OAs.

Enlarged dragon breath could potentially kill 25 minions: but what are your minions doing piling up in a 5x5 square?

Two minions per round is not all that impressive, and if there are non-minion targets on the battlefield, the ranger isn't being as effective as he could be.

I guess I used them in too small a room. I think it was an 10x7 room or something of that size. I had eight minions and I think 6 didn't survive the first round.

Good tips though

 

[Holy Bovine]

So, my players found out about some bandits hiding in a nearby nearly ruined keep. They cleared the place. Since they took a few extended rests during it, the town who sent them sent 6 guards after them to check.

Anyway, the guards stumble into 2 returning bandit patrols (and their leader) and luckily run towards the players. They lose 2 on the way, so I had 2 sword and board and 2 crossbow guards survive and come to the keep.

Recognising them from the town, they let them in, just closing the drawbridge as the enemies appear while the ranger is raining arrows in their general direction. The melee wait inside the keep. The Dwarven fighter decides it would be cool to wait until half the enemies are across the moat and then lower the drawbridge, run up it while its falling and jump over to attack the weakly armored archers of the enemy party.

Great so far. They ran up as it aproached 45 degree angle, and he jumped off. Very cool move. The Paladin faceplanted. The Warlord decided to just ride it out.

Anyway, long story short. My point is, the players really liked the Helm's Deep feel of this encounter. I liked what they came up with to defend the keep. I want to do some more larger scale combats. They, however, complained that it took ages for them between turns. Is there any way I can speed up the meaningless combat between say a sword and board guard and a bandit? I liked the concept of the guards myself, but I think it pushed the encounter from fun into tedious.

I prefer to not use minions, because my 4-player party has a hand of destroying those in 1 or 2 rounds and leaving a 3 monster encounter.

You could create Companion Character versions of the guards (from DMG 2) that the players control. These are basically very simple versions of standard PCs/monsters that are easy to use since they don't get a lot of different powers or attacks but still have the HPs and defenses to last in a longer fight. IF you gave each of your players a guard to control they would all get 2 turns in the initiative order and probably feel more involved.

 

[mkill]

Minions are supposed to die in spades. It's their job. Watch the beginning of the first LotR movie again. Remember when Sauron did the big close burst and soldiers were just flying across the battlefield? That's appropriate use of minions.

In my campaign, a 4 PC 10th level party wiped out 17 minions in the first round of the final battle. Everyone had a blast.

I think the main reason DMs are afraid to use minions properly is that they are worth 1/4 the XP of a full monster. Forget that. Either cut that down to 1/10 or just consider them bags of free XP. Minions are just there for the heroes to brush them away on the way to the real enemies.

Next time you run a big battle, grab all suitable minis you can find and put them on the battlemat as minions.

 

[Mengu]

If you're going to use 30-40 minions, why not instead use 3-4 swarms? Each 10-12 enemies would be 1 huge swarm. When bloodied, you can knock their size down to a large swarm if you have space issues. This is how I simulate mass combat. It goes much faster than activating 40 minions, and they die slower. The same tools that work well against minions (AoE's), work well against swarms.

Swarm auras nicely simulate attacks of a large group.

Swarms that have ranged attacks (such as an archer unit), can easily be resolved with an area burst.

The squeezing rules work nicely if the swarm needs to get somewhere through a tight hole in the wall or a door.

If I need a special task to be performed, I might give the swarm the ability to "spawn" a minion, maybe once per encounter, or maybe once per round, depending on my need, so one of them can perform a different action.

When it comes to simulating mass combat, I think the minion mechanics break down because of all the minion clearing tools, but swarm mechanics hold up much nicer, giving some substance to the enemy mass, and you can combine the two for a pretty nice system to resolve a large scale detailed battle.

 

[Vadriar]

You could create Companion Character versions of the guards (from DMG 2) that the players control. These are basically very simple versions of standard PCs/monsters that are easy to use since they don't get a lot of different powers or attacks but still have the HPs and defenses to last in a longer fight. IF you gave each of your players a guard to control they would all get 2 turns in the initiative order and probably feel more involved.

I did that, but the Fighter and Warlord did not want to control any NPCs. Struck me as odd. For the past weeks I've been creating encounters that play to a single characters strengths and last week it was the Warlord's turn. He should be be just the guy to lead people onto the battlefield, but his player isn't. So the Paladin and the Ranger did it. The player who plays the Figther can barely keep up with his own powers and assorted modifiers, even though we printed him power cards.

Minions are supposed to die in spades. It's their job. Watch the beginning of the first LotR movie again. Remember when Sauron did the big close burst and soldiers were just flying across the battlefield? That's appropriate use of minions.

In my campaign, a 4 PC 10th level party wiped out 17 minions in the first round of the final battle. Everyone had a blast.

I think the main reason DMs are afraid to use minions properly is that they are worth 1/4 the XP of a full monster. Forget that. Either cut that down to 1/10 or just consider them bags of free XP. Minions are just there for the heroes to brush them away on the way to the real enemies.

Next time you run a big battle, grab all suitable minis you can find and put them on the battlemat as minions.

Coincidently, my party is also level 10. In hindsight I should have used 3 or 4 real mosters and about 20 (resist all 10) minions instead of 9 real monsters of which 6 were level 8 soldiers types.

Now I need to figure out a way to make my party not instantly go "Woot, Minions!" whenever I put more than a dozen enemies on the board.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

I think the main reason DMs are afraid to use minions properly is that they are worth 1/4 the XP of a full monster. Forget that. Either cut that down to 1/10 or just consider them bags of free XP. Minions are just there for the heroes to brush them away on the way to the real enemies.

Or do what my DM does, and don't award XP for anything at all. Just level-up the characters when it makes sense. I much prefer this method -- it eliminates tedious bookkeeping and helps keep everyone at the same level.

 

[Talysian]

Super Minions. They take 2 hits or their Fort Value in Dmg to Die. I loves me my super minions.

 

[vagabundo]

Super Minions. They take 2 hits or their Fort Value in Dmg to Die. I loves me my super minions.

I came in here to suggest Tougher Minions (from the house rules forum).

Basically they have a low HP threshold (the threshold depends on their level I believe), if that is breached they are dead, otherwise on a successful hit they are bloodied and the next hit will kill them.

It is a very nice system; gives minions a little more lasting power, also the bloodied condition is there for PC powers that key off that, and managing them does not become a nightmare.

 

[Cormacolinde]

Coincidently, my party is also level 10. In hindsight I should have used 3 or 4 real mosters and about 20 (resist all 10) minions instead of 9 real monsters of which 6 were level 8 soldiers types.

Soldiers are very useful to block melee characters, help give their allies CA and keep defenders busy, but never have more than 2-3 in a fight. They only serve to make fights take way too long, as they do not offer enough DPR to put the characters into significant danger while their defences are higher.