Big Dungeons - An unrequited love?

[Mystery Man]

Then we have the case that the product manages the misrepresenting all on its own .

This is an old discussion. If the designers of the WLD meant the dungeon to be modular, they succeeded marvellously in convincing their customers from the opposite .

Using the syntax "from" makes Jim's point for him.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

Well, when I read the intro and first chapter, it didn't seem very modular to me. I mean, saying someone could break it up is like saying someone could break up Rappan Athuk. And as described, you certainly can't go out the way you came in.

I got the impression it was only as modular as was necessary to facilitate farming out the different sections to different authors.

Ken

 

[Jim Hague]

I won't make any apologies for Region A - the end product of it was the result of some business that I won't go into, beyond saying that what should have been the slam-bang introduction to the WLD was instead flat and very, very, very much against the core ideas of the product. But I'm sticking by my guns and guidelines for the rest - WLD was intended to be modular with very little adjustment, able to be run straight through (though no one expected the majority of play groups to attempt a straight run through.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Perhaps. I'd also trap areas like front doors when I have a back door. Or traps with bypasses, like Glyph of Warding, down the corridor.

I could be wrong, but looking at the trap DCs it seems that you are expected to roll for them (or Take 20) - Taking 10 just isn't enough. CR 1 traps have a Search DC of 20+. So the Search switch is set to "always fail" if you Take 10. (And "always succeed" if you Take 20 - but time is an important factor.)

To a great degree, this depends upon the level of the characters and the degree of focus they put into search/disable device. For instance, a core rules rogue with max ranks, a lens of detection (or goggles of minute seeing), a 14 int and a +2/+2 feat will make DC 23 at level 1 while taking ten. Of course, the goggles/lens aren't likely to be available at level 1, so let's revise that a bit and say that he is likely to be getting DC 26 on a take ten by level 4. By level 6, that's DC 28 and DC 30 by level 8. Less focused characters, will, of course, have more trouble, but the switch goes from "auto-fail" to "auto-succeed" somewhere in the low-mid levels if your rogue is focused on the skill and by the higher mid levels (lvl 10-11) if your rogue is only moderately focused (max ranks and a cheap item but nothing else). If another rogue is available to aid other, success comes even earlier.

The consequence of this is that a non-focused or low-level rogue will typically roll two or three times for each square but a focused and mid level or higher rogue will typically take ten and get through the passage more reliably and two to three times as quickly.

I think that if the player states "I'm looking for traps," calling for rolls only when they matter would solve the problem. Might not work for all groups and dungeons/adventures though.

edit: Changed "exploding runes" to "glyph of warding".

I've found that it works to just ask the proceedure for searching for traps and then ask for the rolls if and when it is necessary. So, if the party is proceeding down a dungeon passage and they decide that the best proceedure is to search each square three times, I would have the party roll three times and apply those rolls to the first trap they came to (if any). Of course, I'd also calculate the time it would take to traverse the passage and have my NPCs react appropriately too.

 

[Turjan]

Using the syntax "from" makes Jim's point for him.

Is that "of"? I apologize, I'm not a native English speaker, and English prepositions are my personal nightmare .

I won't make any apologies for Region A - the end product of it was the result of some business that I won't go into, beyond saying that what should have been the slam-bang introduction to the WLD was instead flat and very, very, very much against the core ideas of the product.

Oh, it's okay. I think this is some kind of sideline to the topic, anyway. Sometimes, the spirit of a project can be damaged by a few wrong words in the very beginning, which is somewhat sad.

That said, I'm not a big dungeon fan, anyway. That's not the fault of the product, but just a case of personal preference .

 

[JamesDJarvis]

I like big dungeons.

They aren't even vaguley difficult to justify and it is silly when folks mention they are but then play in campaign settings with dozens of underground dwelling races. The dungeons are where the goblins, orcs, drow, dwarves, derro, druegar ,and so on, dwell or dwelled.
Level by level travel shouldn't be a trick or gimmick for main levels of a big dungeon, but sub-levels work fine with such a gimmick.

The larger a big dungeon is the more playable it is. No one would try to clear out a city room by room so why try that with a city sized dungeon? Themed section and sub-levels that ARE tricky to get at or obviously different from common areas of the dungeon should be where all the real action and loot are.

There are plenty of multi-level dungeons that humans constructed in the real world, some are salt mines, catacombs beneath cities or deep undrground redoubts with churches, wells and grain storage bins deep under the earth. Our own world has an unknown number of "big dungeons" and we don't tend to all be morlocks and vacation in pelucidar, so why not dozens in a fantasy world?

Big ruins are neato as well. That way you can get multiple dungeons and indoor and outdoor adventuring all in one general spot.

 

[Templetroll]

One campaign I played in that had great dungeons was one where each dungeon had its own 'personality'. We could decide where to go if we wanted a dungeon jaunt or just avoid them altogether.

Trap dungeon - Lots of traps, obviously, and as we set them off they usually stayed set off with the the attendant bloodstains, scorch marks, etc. We later found that it had been created by Good beings to entrap Evil beings and that was why so many odd creatures were in rooms connect by normal corridors their size would have precluded their passing through.

Elevator Dungeon - It had an elevator platform supended over a pit that went down through all ten levels of the dungeon. There were no railings and fights that had creatures chasing the PCs to the platform often had someone topple off it.

Ramp dungeon - it was inside a mountain, the two doors were 80 feet high, 25 feet wide each and there were large highways and ramps inside. The campaign world used the DMs Traveller campaign as the ancient history of his D&D campaign. I think this place was used to move ICBMs around.

Glowing desert dungeon - As a result of some ancient war this desert glowed in the dark, and often caused mutations to creatures passing through the desert. This was an interesting campaign to say the least. The best part about this dungeon is we could follow a path of destruction through walls and down stairs to a known safe room on the twelth level of the dungeon. It was great being able to have a base of operations to explore from.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I agree I probably just got a bad day at the warehouse but it still put me off ordering from them.

The main gaming shop in London (Ontario that is), imo, is LA Mood's on Richmond. I like the staff, they order stuff and I get it promptly and they don't lie to me about realistic due dates. There are two others in town that I would frequent if they didn't have 2 of the following
1) Cat Piss Men
2) Crazy Owner
3) WotC only selection
One other store (the Comic Book Collector on Dundas St E) has a good selection of both books and WotC Miniatures. Good prices too. I prefer LA Mood's for the service and board game selection (second to none!).

I'm glad that LA Mood's is still open. I always liked them, and the owners are really friendly. I've been wondering if the gaming biz in London is ever going to just dry up and die. I'm glad to hear there's still a few running. Also, I bet I know a couple of the cat piss men from back in the day when I used to play at the Crouch library. Ah, memories..