Big Ol' Version O' Bull's Strength

[kreynolds]

Everyone familiar with Bull's Strength?

Bull's Strength

Transmutation
Level: Brd 2, Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 2, Strength 2
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

The spell grants an enhancement bonus to Strength of 1d4+1 points, adding the usual benefits to melee attack rolls, melee damage rolls, and other uses of the Strength modifier.

What kind of a Strength modifier would you apply to it for an 8th or 9th level version of the spell? I'm developing a magic item for a game I'm running and this will be a prerequisite spell.

I was thinking 4d4+4. What about it?

 

[mikebr99]

Everyone familiar with Bull's Strength?



What kind of a Strength modifier would you apply to it for an 8th or 9th level version of the spell? I'm developing a magic item for a game I'm running and this will be a prerequisite spell.

I was thinking 4d4+4. What about it?

Sure... that 1d4+1 more then an 3xEmpowered version of the above. Sounds good to me.

 

[kreynolds]

Just to be sure, what about the duration? Is 1 hour/level too long?

 

[Someone]

Probably not. At those levels, you can simplify and set a duration of 1 day. But a triple empowered bull´s strenght is about (1d4+1)x(2,5), not (1d4+1)x(4).

You have to be careful with that spell if you plan to go Epic. the Paragon Bull´s Strenght is balanced against a multi-empowered bull´s Strenght, but not if you count on 10 or 11 level spell slots. Can I suggest an Enhancement bonus of 3d6+3 but a duration of 1 minute/level?

 

[kreynolds]

Probably not. At those levels, you can simplify and set a duration of 1 day.

True, but I'd rather not do that. Maybe I need to rethink this spell.

But a triple empowered bull´s strenght is about (1d4+1)x(1,5), not (1d4+1)x4.

Correct.

You have to be careful with that spell if you plan to go Epic. the Paragon Bull´s Strenght is balanced against a multi-empowered bull´s Strenght, but not if you count on 10 or 11 level spell slots.

It would be no worse than a mutli-empowered Tenser's Transformation.

Can I suggest an Enhancement bonus of 3d6+3 but a duration of 1 minute/level?

Too low powered. That definately wouldn't be a 9th level spell. Take a look at Tenser's Transformation. With that spell, you get +2d4 Strength and +2d4 Dexterity, among other things, and it's only a 6th level spell.

I'm gonna revamp the spell though. Thinks for the input!

 

[Someone]

Too low powered. That definately wouldn't be a 9th level spell. Take a look at Tenser's Transformation. With that spell, you get +2d4 Strength and +2d4 Dexterity, among other things, and it's only a 6th level spell.

And it´s only personal range and you can´t cast spells when you´re Transformed. But yes, it can be a little underpowered for a 8 or 9 level spell. For comparison, the Bite of the Werebear spell in the Wizard´s page grants +16 to strenght and powerful natural attack bonus.

 

[kreynolds]

For comparison, the Bite of the Werebear spell in the Wizard´s page grants +16 to strenght and powerful natural attack bonus.

That's a good point. I forgot about that spell. Hmmm...more food for thought.

 

[Jens]

Shouldn't the effect of meta-magic feats be considered, especially Empower Spell? Even with a conservative version of Improved Bull's Strength (6th level: 2d4+2, the same as a twice-empowered BS), the result is a spell which scales much better with Empower. Once is 3d4+3 vs 2d4+2+(d4+1)/2, twice is 4d4+4 vs 3d4+4, etc. (And isn't there some epic feat that can reduce the cost of meta-magic?)

The spell Bite of the Werebear which was brought up gives a fixed bonus so it cannot be Empowered.

[edit]To be more constructive: How about a fixed bonus that scales with caster level? Say, +half caster level as a 6th level spell?

 

[kreynolds]

Shouldn't the effect of meta-magic feats be considered, especially Empower Spell?

Yes, it should, and it has been.

Even with a conservative version of Improved Bull's Strength (6th level: 2d4+2, the same as a twice-empowered BS)

I'm sure you're aware of Tenser's Transformation? It's also a 6th level spell, like your sample spell, and grants a Strength bonus of +2d4, like your sample spell. You could mulit-empower Tenser's Transformation nearly as effectively, though arguably, far, far more effectively than my spell. The reason why I added the +4 bonus (which doesn't increase with empower anyway, because it isn't a variable numeric effect), is because this spell offers only a strength bonus, whereas Tenser's Transformation also offers a +4 natural AC bonus, +1d6 temporary hit points per caster level (which would increase with empower spell), a +2d4 Dexterity enhancement bonus (which would also increase with empower spell), a +1 base attack bonus increase per 2 caster levels, a +5 competence bonus on Fortitude saves, and proficiency with all simple and martial weapons. The only drawback to Tenser's Transformation, and it's a big one, is that you can't cast spells, not even from magic items.

To further balance this out, if necessary, I had considered shortening the duration of my spell. I was thinking of 1 minute/level.

(And isn't there some epic feat that can reduce the cost of meta-magic?)

Yes. It reduces the cost of metamagic by 1 each time you take it (but no less than 1 for any given metamagic application). But you should keep in mind that my version will end up being an 8th or 9th level spell, so the cost to use metamagic on it will be more expensive. In other words, you could take Tenser's Transformation much farther with Empower Spell than you could mine.

[edit]To be more constructive: How about a fixed bonus that scales with caster level? Say, +half caster level as a 6th level spell?

I thought about that originally, but the idea was to create a spell that scales up with power. Still isn't a bad idea though, and definately worth looking into, so if you wouldn't mind sticking around, I'd love to have your help on that.

I would, however, like to finish this spell up as well. In the grand scheme of things, I think my spell is pretty balanced, even against a multi-empowered Tenser's Transformation, and I think that shortening the duration will finish it off quite nicely.

 

[Jens]

All good points. I only have one small comment on this:

The reason why I added the +4 bonus (which doesn't increase with empower anyway, because it isn't a variable numeric effect), ...

Which I think is not true. Even something like d2+20 is a 'variable numeric effect' and the +20 is included. So the whole thing is multiplied by Empower. I think the Empower text spells it out using MM and Cure spells as examples.

Edit: You have a very specific reason for developing the spell, but why would somebody not just Empower BS? If the point just is to get spell to Empower more effectively, then I would be very conservative in making it.