Big Ol' Version O' Bull's Strength

[tleilaxu]

I think a good 9th level spell that does this would give 5d4+5 in all stats or all physical stats or somesuch

 

[reiella]

All the domains in R&R actually have some domain levels with multiple spells.

Of note when comparing against Tenser's is that you're also burning a potion of strength, in itself granting you '1d4+1' of the '2d4' strength bonus, or at the least are a mildly non-trivial component (300 gp cost, although easy enough to make on your own I suppose).

In all I think the focused 5d4 strength is appropiate, possibly have it be a combination 'enlarge' + strength bonus to give it some unique flavor, and at least to make it something besides a 'Bigger & Better Bull's Strength', but that's simply opinion .

 

[Cheiromancer]

We have some "metamagicked" versions of spells already on the spell lists.

fireball + delay spell = delayed blast fireball

lightning bolt + chain spell = chain lightning

Thing is, these improved versions of the spells have the benefit of the Heighten Spell feat and the Enhance Spell (epic) feat. In fact, if you were to construct the above spells with all three feats, what you would get is:

delay (+3) + enhance (+4) + heighten (+4) = +11 levels

Which translates into +4 levels when delayed blast fireball is researched.

lightning bolt (3rd level) + chain (+3) + enhance (+4) + heighten (+3)= +10 levels.

This translates into +3 levels when chain lightning is researched.

As a rule of thumb, I ignore the "heighten" and halve the remaining metamagic bonuses.

So if a bull's strength were empowered six times, I would add half the levels that six empowers would add. So bump it to 8th level. Provided the duration was in hours (like bull's strength is). Or turns, if you think bull's strength lasts too long. If the duration is in minutes, I would drop it a level, to 7th. Which is what reiella suggests.

Or, using Energy Admixture as kind of an analogy, I would bump it back up to 9th level, but give 4d4+4 to Constitution as well.

 

[Cheiromancer]

i.e. like this:

Titan's Strength
Transmutation
Level: Brd 9, Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9, Strength 9
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

The spell grants an enhancement bonus to Strength of 4d4+4 points, adding the usual benefits to melee attack rolls, melee damage rolls, and other uses of the Strength modifier. Titan’s Strength also grants a 4d4+4 point enhancement bonus to Constitution, which adds the usual benefits to hit points per die, Fortitude saves, and the like.

Loki’s Cunning
Transmutation
Level: Brd 9, Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9, Trickery 9
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

The spell grants an enhancement bonus to Intelligence of 4d4+4 points, adding the usual benefits to Intelligence checks, wizard spell DC’s and the like. Loki’s Cunning also grants a 4d4+4 point enhancement bonus to Dexterity, which adds the usual benefits to Armor Class, Reflex saves, initiative and skills.

Apollo’s Splendor
Transmutation
Level: Brd 9, Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9, Glory 9
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

The spell grants an enhancement bonus to Wisdom of 4d4+4 points, adding the usual benefits to Wisdom checks, cleric spell DC’s and the like. Apollo’s splendor also grants a 4d4+4 point enhancement bonus to Charisma, which improves sorcerer spell DC’s, turn undead checks, and all other benefits of a high Charisma.

Thanks to tleilaxu for the names of these high-end spells!

 

[kreynolds]

Thanks, Cheiromancer. Nice breakdown too. It's kinda funny actually. The bonus is right back where I started it in my first post.

 

[tleilaxu]

Still, I would at least bump those spells down to 8th level.

I wonder how strong a titan really is??

(a minute later...)

Hmm... 37

edit: Still, those spells have a certain style to them. FOr me personally, I'd only have 2, mental prowess and physical prowess...

 

[kreynolds]

OK. Going off of Cheiromancer's examples (who apparently thinks damn near identically to me - creepy), what do you guys and gals think? 8th? 9th?

 

[da chicken]

Is there any reason you're using dice to determine the bonus? Why not simply an enhancement bonus equal to the caster level (+25 max)?

Personally, I'd keep these as 9th level spells. And you should probably disqualify bonus spells from the Int/Wis/Cha versions like they did in Tome and Blood. We don't need Sorcerers running around casting Aphrodite's splendor and gaining 15 extra slots for 20 minutes.

 

[kreynolds]

Is there any reason you're using dice to determine the bonus?

Yes. See first reply to Jens.

Personally, I'd keep these as 9th level spells.

I'm inclined to do so as well. I'd rather it be a level too high than a level too low. Thanks for the input. I'll keep that in mind.

And you should probably disqualify bonus spells from the Int/Wis/Cha versions like they did in Tome and Blood.

I did in my docs. The spells really didn't change, except for level, duration, and bonus. Otherwise, they function identically to their lower level counterparts.

 

[da chicken]

Originally posted by kreynolds

Originally posted by da chicken
Is there any reason you're using dice to determine the bonus?

Yes. See first reply to Jens

The sole reason is so you can scale it infinitely? You don't think that's kind of poor design? I mean, that's kind of designing a spell just so you can break it. Not a big deal, mind you, but I find it a little odd.