Big problem with intelligence enhancing items?

[MerakSpielman]

OK, here's a fun hypothetical.

Say you have an int-boosting item. Say it gives you skill points. Say those skill points are permenant even after you take off the item.

Now say you lose a level from some level-draining creature.

When you regain your level (assuming you still haven't put the item back on), where do you put your reduced number of skill points?

 

[Scion]

Seeing as how in your example you are apparently 'working' your way back to the level, rather than getting some spell cast then.. wherever you want legally

 

[Scion]

If a character wants more skill points - multiclass for a level into a class that provides them like rogue or ask the DM to allow you to pick up a level as an NPC class Expert. That's a permanent investment appropriate to picking up a permanent benefit.

At that point there shouldnt be 'any' stat boosting items. Need some hp or fort save? multi into a fighter type. Need some str? Take one of the rituals from savage species (this goes for any stat for that matter). Need some dex? should've been an elf, stupid you.

Permanent increase? uh oh, cant be having any tomes either.. permanent increases from an item is a no no.

 

[MerakSpielman]

Seeing as how in your example you are apparently 'working' your way back to the level, rather than getting some spell cast then.. wherever you want legally

I had always assumed that you had to put skill points back into the same slots you got them taken away from.

But to continue my absurd example.

Crafting Golems takes a particular number of ranks in Craft (whatever). So a clever wizard, with lots of time to spare, could level up, put all his ranks in Craft (whatever), create his Golem, lose a level (not that hard to do deliberately), and then when he regains his level put his skill points into the skills he would normally use. This would be a tedious exercise for a PC, but I can see NPCs, who have years to burn, taking the time and effort.

 

[billd91]

At that point there shouldnt be 'any' stat boosting items. Need some hp or fort save? multi into a fighter type. Need some str? Take one of the rituals from savage species (this goes for any stat for that matter). Need some dex? should've been an elf, stupid you.

Permanent increase? uh oh, cant be having any tomes either.. permanent increases from an item is a no no.

I don't think you've been paying attention to what I've been posting. I think there shouldn't be a permanent increase from a temporary magic item. I also said that if they did offer permanent increases, then they should be more expensive. Check out the expense of the permanent stat increasing tomes and you'll notice that they are pretty darn expensive.

And taking a multiclass as a fighter-type is a good way to get a permanent increase in your base fort save, that's true. Thanks for pointing that out. Notice: that's a permanent increase and not one that goes away if the item is gone or deactivated as in an anti-magic sphere. Keep in mind that the wizard who invests in an item that bumps his Con so he gets more hit points is going to be in a panic when in that anti-magic sphere, moreso than any character who invested in a permanent hit point increase by taking a multiclass option in a high-hit point class or purchased the toughness feat.

 

[Scion]

I had always assumed that you had to put skill points back into the same slots you got them taken away from.

Why would they have to do that?

Crafting Golems takes a particular number of ranks in Craft (whatever). So a clever wizard, with lots of time to spare, could level up, put all his ranks in Craft (whatever), create his Golem, lose a level (not that hard to do deliberately), and then when he regains his level put his skill points into the skills he would normally use. This would be a tedious exercise for a PC, but I can see NPCs, who have years to burn, taking the time and effort.

I would rather use psychic reformation, or maybe a wish. It would save a lot of hassle.. Possibly just invest that huge amount of exp into a really big item to grant a plus to that skill check. There have to be a dozen ways to get around this in a better fashion

 

[Scion]

Hello? Are you paying attention? I think there shouldn't be a permanent increase from a temporary magic item.

::sighs:: what part of, 'artifact of how the system works' do you not understand?

If you have a better way to deal with how the game works it, go for it, until then things work much more naturally, and much more smoothly, by just allowing it.

It opens up that whole option, and it is available to anyone who wants to spend the time and money on it. It takes away other options at the same time. Long term plans and all.

Not everyone will do it, it wont even be helpful to everyone (should I get that +2 sword, or a +2 int item for a single skill point.. well, the +2 sword will certainly help me live, whereas the +2 int wont do anything for me for quite some time, and little even then)

As for the rest though, it just isnt feasible. Sure, if you really want to destroy a character go right ahead.

As for me, I will simply make the system work as it should. If you are smarter for a time when you are studying hard for a whole level, then you get the nice little, even if marginal, benefit. Sure it lasts forever, big deal. That is an artifact of how the system works.

Other bonuses work out for 'permanent' effects in other ways, they arent always as noticable, but so what? They are still there, they are always with the character in some form or another.

It still has a 'cost', and sometimes it is a huge one, that is the point. Choices. Some choices are better for short term (I'll get this toughness feat to help me out here.. or, I'll spend all of my money and get that nifty sword over there) others are for the long term (I'll get this item of int or I'll buy this item to tell when my god is angry at me or I'll spend a skill point over here or I'll put that stat point I just gained here so that I can gain benefit X from a feat later on). The game is about choices. Taking away a choice without proper compenstation just seems assinine. Much the same as earlier examples like taking away the will save bonus for no reason, or how about a cha item that helps with no class features what-so-ever? Too bad, still costs the same, sure we took out one of the most important parts, but who cares about you?

 

[Nail]

FWIW: I've often given PCs (I've played) or NPCs (I've DMed) Int-boosting items, just to get a few extra skill points. Especially when I'm making a Rogue character!

Have y'all *seen* how many rogue skills there are? Just writing down the "necessary" list (IMHO) is 10 skills.....and that's usually all of the rogue's skill points right there.

More skill points are better: this was a bad change.

 

[Scion]

Generally speaking, have a few more skill points simply helps to flesh out a character, most people feel that isnt a bad thing.

Since it is impossible to get the big boost from the item (the x4 at the beginning) the possibilities for abuse are effectively nil, while the ability to say, 'hey, I have an extra skill point, maybe I can get that cross class skill X I would like!' is much higher.

 

[Nail]

Yup.


By the way: Would it not be interesting if an Archmage found an extremely promising young apprentice, and gave him a Circlet of Int +6......just so he'd get all those extra skills?

He'd take the circlet back later, I suppose.