Birthright conversion for non-Cerilian games

[Bendris Noulg]

We love you too, Bendris.

I think you're reading more anomosity in what I wrote than I intended to be there. Go beyond the one sentance you quoted and you'll see the meat of my point (being in reference to Silvarus' statement in the first post about Birthright not being an OGL product). It's also in reference to the response I witnessed about Dungeon/Polyhedron conversion of SpellJammer, being that the article was simply run without any consulting/reviewing by the "official" site, as well as the reaction on the Dark Sun boards when DS critters started appearing in various WotC books (notably, MM2). And with the contents of Dragon 315 (I think... I stopped buying Dragon a year or so back...), I can't imagine the situation between WotC and "official fan sites" getting any better.

Also, since it may change your views of my statement, if I come across a question asking me "is their a Birthright conversion?", BR.net is the place I send them because it is what they're looking for.

But, when someone else says, "I know this isn't via the official site, but...", I generally respond with, "pthththththth to the official site."

Hope you understand and this thread can continue.

If not... Well, my email's available, so the thread can continue.

 

[DanMcS]

About three posts into the thread, I responded to him and said essentially the same thing, nobody in the world minds how many conversions there are floating around. Nobody on the thread has said anything about "I know this isn't via the official site, but...", so your snide comment seemed very out of the blue.

 

[DanMcS]

If not, can I get a copy of the full thing? (I have bought the PDFs of all the Birthright material, except for Naval System Rules and I think the non-Anuirean Player's Secrets. So that shows you how much I like Birthright...)

You're not missing much in the Naval system rules, that book was almost exactly the same as the naval rules from the khinasi boxed set, Cities of the Sun. The Player's Secrets are hit and miss, I liked the one for Binsada for instance, but none of them are must-have material.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

About three posts into the thread, I responded to him and said essentially the same thing, nobody in the world minds how many conversions there are floating around.

Ah... Your post got lost in the sea of ultra-long conversion posts, which I'm still trying to digest...

Nobody on the thread has said anything about "I know this isn't via the official site, but...", so your snide comment seemed very out of the blue.

Well, that was paraphrasing... The actual comment in this thread was: As Birthright is NOT OGL, and the folks at Birthright.net have the official rights to fan conversions, I am posting my intention first.

Naturally, I've seen it written a dozen different ways, but it amounts to the same thing.

And I wasn't being snide.

Anyway, to the topic of the thread...

Birthright Conversion part 1: Bloodlines
The gradation is based on something the people could see and measure: the number and potency of Bloodline Powers you display (not Bloodline Score). So, each of the Bloodline Feats is tied to a pattern of powers, and the overall number and potency of powers matches up pretty well to a specific Bloodline Strength. There is still some variation, but it is not all over the board like the original rules.

On this: Would you be looking at one pre-defined order of powers, or would a Bloodline have a choice of two or three? While I do see a benefit to codifying these more specifically, I'd love to avoid typifying an entire family line by their powers.

I also added the Bloodline to the people's vocabulary. A Bloodline, in this sense, means that members of a particular family sharing the same origin and ancestry all have the same powers. If children have a weaker Strength than their parent's, when they raise it, they will gain the same powers as their parent with the dominant Bloodline. Which brings me to some other new terms relating to Bloodlines: the Diurshegh and the Durishegh. The Diurshegh is the current "Head of the Family" for a particular Bloodline, and the Durishegh is the "next in line," the designated Heir.

Cadet (new) branches of the family are created when someone in the family other than the Diurshegh leaps past the powers defined for his/her family. If House Alesson has only been at 'Major' at its strongest, and some young adventurer pushes his/her personal powers to match the requirements to be defined as Great, that character "splits off" and becomes the root of a new Bloodline. The Bloodline may end with that character if there is no marriage and progeny; if there is a marriage and progeny, the new family is noble and considered a cadet branch of the character's original family. The question of marriage may vary from campaign world to campaign world -- some will view the marriage to legitimize the offspring as necessary; other worlds may not need that technicality.

Any thought concerning an alternate origin of a Regent? For instance, in Mists of Avalon, Uther (and then later, I believe, Arthur) enters a symbolic marraige with Mother Earth, binding his actions and deeds to the welfare of the people and land. In a (flavor) sense, Uther was becoming a "Regent" as defined in BR.

I'd like a (non-Cerilion) rules set permit such entries. It also helps provide a means by which the rules can be more readily ported into a setting that doesn't include a "lineage of gods" or similar theme. Ex: The Clan of the North sends the Chief's son to face the Great Bear Spirit and to fight until death. However, the Great Bear cannot be beaten; It is really a test of the Great Bear to measure the lad's honor, courage, and resourcefulness. If the Chief's son is worthy of the Great Bear's "enigma", the Spirit joins with the youth, creating a Regent (rules wise, the Spirit is "gone", but the character is now considered "blooded").

See what I mean?

 

[Silveras]

Silveras, is all of this in the document you sent to me earlier, including the "fortify = stronghold units" stuff?

If not, can I get a copy of the full thing? (I have bought the PDFs of all the Birthright material, except for Naval System Rules and I think the non-Anuirean Player's Secrets. So that shows you how much I like Birthright...)

Yes, it is all in there. The PDF is 99% the same as what is here; I made a few minor corrections as I was posting these. I think I put them all in the PDF, but I may have missed 1 or 2.

 

[Silveras]

On this: Would you be looking at one pre-defined order of powers, or would a Bloodline have a choice of two or three? While I do see a benefit to codifying these more specifically, I'd love to avoid typifying an entire family line by their powers.

No, the idea is that the specific set of powers defines a bloodline. The "House Alessandro" bloodline consists of minor powers A, B, C, and D, and major powers E and F; someone who shows a different mix of powers is not of the that bloodline. I did this to allow observant PCs to be able to "spot the imposter" in political campaigns. When you get to skills, there are some new tasks for Knowledge (nobility and royalty) that allow you to identify the family or know the bloodline powers if you know the family. Note that I also make Bloodmark a free power ALL blooded characters have, for pretty much the same reasons.

This also makes more sense in a world like my homebrew, where there are 50+ gods, and planetouched heritage also qualifies.

Any thought concerning an alternate origin of a Regent? For instance, in Mists of Avalon, Uther (and then later, I believe, Arthur) enters a symbolic marraige with Mother Earth, binding his actions and deeds to the welfare of the people and land. In a (flavor) sense, Uther was becoming a "Regent" as defined in BR.

I'd like a (non-Cerilion) rules set permit such entries. It also helps provide a means by which the rules can be more readily ported into a setting that doesn't include a "lineage of gods" or similar theme. Ex: The Clan of the North sends the Chief's son to face the Great Bear Spirit and to fight until death. However, the Great Bear cannot be beaten; It is really a test of the Great Bear to measure the lad's honor, courage, and resourcefulness. If the Chief's son is worthy of the Great Bear's "enigma", the Spirit joins with the youth, creating a Regent (rules wise, the Spirit is "gone", but the character is now considered "blooded").

See what I mean?

Yes, actually, I use some alternates. I consider all Planetouched characters to be Blooded, and work up a new heritage for them. I deliberately left out defining specific powers, and instead only wrote guidelines on how to select appropriate abilities, because I wanted to leave that area open to expansion.

As I was saying just yesterday, I am inclined to move away from the bloodline powers -- they do not fit as well into 3rd Edition, I think, at least in non-Cerilian worlds. Using Honor points instead preserves the Domain rules withouy dragging in the powers & abilities of the bloodlines.

However, in replacing the bloodline rules, new rules for succession must be worked out. Family lineages provide a connection to the successor that other motifs do not.

 

[Argus Decimus Mokira]

However, in replacing the bloodline rules, new rules for succession must be worked out. Family lineages provide a connection to the successor that other motifs do not.

Is this something that really needs rules? It seems that roleplaying could easily define when someone ousts their old man, or decides to set off into the wilderness to found a new dynasty.

I'm really torn ... I really like the idea that people can identify a person's lineage by their powers, but that doesn't work out so well when it's only feats and skill bonuses. I mean, the scenario is ridiculous ...

"Oh, he's bluffing well and fighting with two bastard swords ... must be from Clan Jackassery!"

Ah well ... I don't want the spells, so I guess it's nothing but moping for me.
One more time - thanks for everything Silveras!
-Matt

 

[Heretic Apostate]

Silveras, I can't seem to find it...

Can you send it again?

sanzcour70 at yahoo dot com

 

[Silveras]

Is this something that really needs rules? It seems that roleplaying could easily define when someone ousts their old man, or decides to set off into the wilderness to found a new dynasty.

I'm really torn ... I really like the idea that people can identify a person's lineage by their powers, but that doesn't work out so well when it's only feats and skill bonuses. I mean, the scenario is ridiculous ...

"Oh, he's bluffing well and fighting with two bastard swords ... must be from Clan Jackassery!"

Ah well ... I don't want the spells, so I guess it's nothing but moping for me.
One more time - thanks for everything Silveras!
-Matt

Well, knowing how any successor is selected is important. The bloodlines in Birthright included a designated heir for the Domain, who might or might not have been born a relative. Investiture is another area where the "mystical" qualities of the bloodline become somewhat important -- they give the spell/action something to "grab onto". Eliminating the mystical side of the bloodlines raises questions how to modify Investiture.

Succession within a noble house is a little different, as that may be independent of the title. I had hoped the the Noble's Handbook would be useful for that, but the rules there disappointed me. I wanted some way to depict power games *within* a noble house, which that book pretty much sidesteps.

Anyway, yes, removing the mystical benefits of the bloodlines changes the way spells that affect bloodlines work. The spells that suppress, lend, or borrow powers all become inappropriate, as is the skill use I mentioned (identifying the bloodline from its powers). That's also why, while writing my variation, I kept going back and forth about how to do the bloodlines.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

However, in replacing the bloodline rules, new rules for succession must be worked out. Family lineages provide a connection to the successor that other motifs do not.

Oh, heavens, no... I don't mean to suggest replacing Bloodlines. What I'd like is to have different means available within the same world. For instance, if you introduce another continent in the BR setting (hypothetical, folks... No one needs a dogma hammer here...), there would be no story-based reason for the rulers of this land to have Bloodlines. However, one culture could have leadership by Druidic ritual (ala Uther/Arthur), while another could be trial-by-spirits (ala The Great Bear). In this manner, the rulers of the second continent would have similar abilities (maintaining a balance between the lands) without attempting to justify "Bloodlines" existing where they technically shouldn't; The inherited "enigma" is mechanically the same as a Bloodline, only the story-based reason for gaining it changes.

For example, the Chief's son, that merges with the Bear Spirit, would gain the power of the former Chief. In this instance, it is the father, but it wouldn't have to be: Anyone the Bear Spirit deams worthy of succession gains the enigma. In addition, tribal elders, shaman, and warrior-lords could also take similar tests with other spirits, reproducing the "family" in numbers if not in structure by having the lesser strength enigmas.

(When you think about it, I half-wrote the rule just now, didn't I?)