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Birthright. Tell Me About It. Please.
- Thread starter drscott46
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Brakkart
First Post
My group back in the day (of which I'm the only survivor in my groups current lineup) played through a couple BR campaigns and we genrally found that Guild Holdings were broken, mainly because every other kind of holding either doesn't generate much finance (Law & Magic) or has significant outgoings to balance its income (Temple). Guilds though rake in the cash but other than paying a nominal amount for the upkeep of their holdings they have nothing to do with their money.
As a result the couple players we had playing guilds (one of whom was me) were quite able to bankroll their own fleets and armies and set about changing the map. My guild invaded and conquered Chimaeron (easy realm to take out, the Awnsheigh is a wuss) and the other settled the island of Caelcorwynn and created 2 provinces there.
For the second and third BR campaigns we created a hybrid system, marrying bloodlnes, holdings and such from BR with the expanded domain rules that Bruce Heard created in his Mystara series in Dragon magazine (Known World Grimoire I think it was called). We found that created a far more playable and balanced system for ruling/running realms (though it was more paperwork intensive).
As a result the couple players we had playing guilds (one of whom was me) were quite able to bankroll their own fleets and armies and set about changing the map. My guild invaded and conquered Chimaeron (easy realm to take out, the Awnsheigh is a wuss) and the other settled the island of Caelcorwynn and created 2 provinces there.
For the second and third BR campaigns we created a hybrid system, marrying bloodlnes, holdings and such from BR with the expanded domain rules that Bruce Heard created in his Mystara series in Dragon magazine (Known World Grimoire I think it was called). We found that created a far more playable and balanced system for ruling/running realms (though it was more paperwork intensive).
Brakkart said:
The problem you had was in not figuring in who actually controlled the military might.
In 2nd ed only the landed regents could raise troops with significant might. The guilders could finance them but could only raise limited power troops.
Also the landed regents could readily destroy any roads at will (and they were necessary for maintaining trade routes).
It sounds like, given the makeup of my group, that it's best to try and hook them with a couple of conventional adventures to frame the world's background, then allow players so motivated to transition into domain stuff as we build traction. The newer players scared off by domain play can stay as sub-leaders.
How apropos that I'd be pulling out political speak for a political campaign. But there's always salesmanship involved when you're trying to win people over. Fortunately, I don't have anyone in my group who's a drooling fan-person for any particular setting (well, okay, the one guy who loves Warhammer FRP, but since I play in his campaign occasionally he doesn't publicly rock the boat).
I've seen a lot of talk (praise, it appears to be) about the setting's races, heroes and villains, but I'm wondering about the mass combat & naval battle systems. How do they compare to Battlesystem or any of the other cracks at mass combat that TSR/WotC have taken over the years?
How apropos that I'd be pulling out political speak for a political campaign. But there's always salesmanship involved when you're trying to win people over. Fortunately, I don't have anyone in my group who's a drooling fan-person for any particular setting (well, okay, the one guy who loves Warhammer FRP, but since I play in his campaign occasionally he doesn't publicly rock the boat).
I've seen a lot of talk (praise, it appears to be) about the setting's races, heroes and villains, but I'm wondering about the mass combat & naval battle systems. How do they compare to Battlesystem or any of the other cracks at mass combat that TSR/WotC have taken over the years?
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Ahhh, sweet, sweet Cerilia. To say that I am fond of this setting would be false. IMO it's the best TSR/WoTC published setting to date. For many of the reasons listed above.
The details of the setting are deeply meshed together. Things have a reason. There is a defined need for heroes to rise up, as the NPC's aren't going to be the heroes of the setting. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. Culture matters. Nations matter. Organizations matter.
The number of hooks provided by the setting far exceeds any other setting. You can have characters with national pride in the campaign. Where you come from matters far more than your class as you travel. Politics and intrigue abound!
I think the biggest failure of the marketing of this setting was the entire regency/rulership factor. While those rules were an awesome setup forward in the 2E environment, the fact that Birthright presented a totally awesome setting for normal adventures was not played upon very well by the marketing. I think that, had more people understood that you could do more than wargame the setting, Birthright could have done better in it's limited time, or remained as a live setting.
I ran a few campaigns, and played in one or two as well. I can tell you from personal experience that the roleplay opportunities found in the political environment are unmatched (by the very nature of the setting). Nothing like having to travel through the nation of Ghoere, and being 'found' and made a 'welcome guest' of the Baron. Did I mention I was trying to move across the nation with armies to help a friend (not exactly easy to hide that). The Baron didn't want me to get there on time so he delayed me politically. "Why yes, you can travel across my lands in your noble cause... but you wouldn't want to offend my wife by not allowing her to throw a festival to celebrate your visit would you? It shouldn't take more than a week or two..."
Birthright offered many things you just couldn't find at the time. The human races were distinct, with clear cultures that seeped into your characters. The non-humans felt non-human and alien. Their culture had motives far from human motives and playing those characters also provided a deep mesh to build a character within.
It's the only setting that I bought and used as a setting instead of as inspiration for a world of my own design. I highly recommend letting it influence your own settings, or running it for straight adventures...
Just to ensure that I don't sound like a totally frothing fanboi, the rules for mass combat were horrible and never felt good to me. Considering Wizard's miniatures favored ideas these days, it would almost make sense for them to bring Birthright back and tie it to a better combat system that embraces the use of all these nifty miniatures they have produced.
The details of the setting are deeply meshed together. Things have a reason. There is a defined need for heroes to rise up, as the NPC's aren't going to be the heroes of the setting. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. Culture matters. Nations matter. Organizations matter.
The number of hooks provided by the setting far exceeds any other setting. You can have characters with national pride in the campaign. Where you come from matters far more than your class as you travel. Politics and intrigue abound!
I think the biggest failure of the marketing of this setting was the entire regency/rulership factor. While those rules were an awesome setup forward in the 2E environment, the fact that Birthright presented a totally awesome setting for normal adventures was not played upon very well by the marketing. I think that, had more people understood that you could do more than wargame the setting, Birthright could have done better in it's limited time, or remained as a live setting.
I ran a few campaigns, and played in one or two as well. I can tell you from personal experience that the roleplay opportunities found in the political environment are unmatched (by the very nature of the setting). Nothing like having to travel through the nation of Ghoere, and being 'found' and made a 'welcome guest' of the Baron. Did I mention I was trying to move across the nation with armies to help a friend (not exactly easy to hide that). The Baron didn't want me to get there on time so he delayed me politically. "Why yes, you can travel across my lands in your noble cause... but you wouldn't want to offend my wife by not allowing her to throw a festival to celebrate your visit would you? It shouldn't take more than a week or two..."
Birthright offered many things you just couldn't find at the time. The human races were distinct, with clear cultures that seeped into your characters. The non-humans felt non-human and alien. Their culture had motives far from human motives and playing those characters also provided a deep mesh to build a character within.
It's the only setting that I bought and used as a setting instead of as inspiration for a world of my own design. I highly recommend letting it influence your own settings, or running it for straight adventures...
Just to ensure that I don't sound like a totally frothing fanboi, the rules for mass combat were horrible and never felt good to me. Considering Wizard's miniatures favored ideas these days, it would almost make sense for them to bring Birthright back and tie it to a better combat system that embraces the use of all these nifty miniatures they have produced.
drscott46 said:
I found that an easy way to ease people into domain rules was to give them a few Regency Points for actions done for the common good. Say the PC's clear up a marauding band of Goblins in a particular province... give them a couple regency points to use in that province only to represent the fact that they are seen as heroes by the people, and will be listened to. This gives the players the occasional chance or two (as a party, not individuals) to bend some of the local politics to their view, without making them full regents.
As the campaign progresses, the actual regents in the area will take note of these adventurers and start to use them for their own ends (as lieutenants, etc.) and if the players do well, one or two of them could become the heirs to one of the actual organizations over the course of time (maybe the PC Paladin becomes the head of the church as the capstone to his career, etc.).
Doing this will quickly identify which players want their characters to get political, and which players could care less... and then you can design plot lines with that knowledge and make sure everyone gets their chance to shine in a way that they want for their character.
drscott46 said:
2nd ed (the original BR setting information). The battlesystem was much simplier than others. It used war cards and instead of rolling dice for effects you drew cards from a deck.
It was quick when compared to normal wargames. The biggest problem, IMO, was that wargamers wanted a mass combat system but were used to something more detailed and were thus left unfulfilled. Non-wargamers really didn't get into the mass combat system all that much and so felt it was too detailed.
The system in the BRCS is based a lot on minatures styled rules and definitely involves rolling dice (keeping with the d20 theme).
The "issues" that have been encountered at Birthright.net on this system were that most people wanted something more detailed than what is currently in the BRCS. I felt that the system should actually be simplier and that if people wanted a more detailed system they could use one of the already published more complex systems (e.g., Cry Havoc of Fields of Blood). Alas I was on the low side of that poll and so the eventual system will indeed be more complex than the one presented in the BRCS-playtes document presently.
The real reason for the failure of the setting is most likely associated with its timing. It was the last setting released before TSR's collapse.
It suffered from the "we've got to publish everythign as soon as possible" syndrome. Thus there were a lot of editorial issues with the documents. The novels weren't written to support the setting and the minatures (Ral Partha) also were scaled back.
When WotC bought out TSR and regrouped the company the focus was on trying to be profitable and logic dictated that supporting 5+ settings was counterproductive to quality and focus. So Birthright was one of those that were "dropped", along with Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Planescape, etc.
It suffered from the "we've got to publish everythign as soon as possible" syndrome. Thus there were a lot of editorial issues with the documents. The novels weren't written to support the setting and the minatures (Ral Partha) also were scaled back.
When WotC bought out TSR and regrouped the company the focus was on trying to be profitable and logic dictated that supporting 5+ settings was counterproductive to quality and focus. So Birthright was one of those that were "dropped", along with Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Planescape, etc.
IcyCool
First Post
Birthright was a beautiful setting, richly detailed, and very playable. I played 3 games set in Birthright (one of which was a 3.0 game with ad-hoc'd Birthright stuff), and GM'd one. We went through the books, decided on what the blood powers did in 3.0, and we were off and running. I was never completely comfortable with the mass combat rules, and we pretty much tried a different, made up system, for each of the two times we ran mass combat (I suspect I'd use the mob rules from PHB2 now).
They wound up siezing, civilizing, and claiming the island of Caelcorwyn, ruling it as a council of regents. It was one of the most entertaining games I ever ran (and my first time DMing D&D 3.0). I even got to use a classed Imp as a BBEG. The game went on for almost a year (they had four domain turns by that point, with their new nation), before the out-of-game strife between two of the players broke it up.
I even remember some of their names:
Emma (half-elven ranger/wizard)
? (norse human nature priest, who single handedly eliminated the undead crew of a ghost ship by greater turning them)
Ackbar al-Akhmed (arabic falchion warrior)
Herkia Bjornsson (norse human fighter/wizard/sea wolf (custom PrC))
? (Stout dwarf)
Alexander von Schaffan (second son of the Berhagen throne, conniving SOB)
Victor von Schaffan (first son of the Berhagen throne, simple-minded knight in training)
? (Human paladin)
They wound up siezing, civilizing, and claiming the island of Caelcorwyn, ruling it as a council of regents. It was one of the most entertaining games I ever ran (and my first time DMing D&D 3.0). I even got to use a classed Imp as a BBEG. The game went on for almost a year (they had four domain turns by that point, with their new nation), before the out-of-game strife between two of the players broke it up.
I even remember some of their names:
Emma (half-elven ranger/wizard)
? (norse human nature priest, who single handedly eliminated the undead crew of a ghost ship by greater turning them)
Ackbar al-Akhmed (arabic falchion warrior)
Herkia Bjornsson (norse human fighter/wizard/sea wolf (custom PrC))
? (Stout dwarf)
Alexander von Schaffan (second son of the Berhagen throne, conniving SOB)
Victor von Schaffan (first son of the Berhagen throne, simple-minded knight in training)
? (Human paladin)
cignus_pfaccari
First Post
irdeggman said:
The novels weren't exactly very good. The one about the last Emperor was decent, but after that was eh at best and nausea-inducing at worse.
Brad
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