Black Spine, Red Blood: A Dark Sun 3.5 Campaign
- Thread starter Paxus Asclepius
- Start date
humble minion
Legend
Bumping this thread, in the hope of attracting the attention of Wynter Wolf and/or Tailspinner.
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evileeyore
Mrrrph
Sorry to hear that Tailspinner. I hope it isn't catching. [/humor]
Seriously now.
Paxus: I am continuing on the topic of OOC DC conversation started in the game thread.
My thoughts. Wizards, clerics, druids, etc that cast spells have set DCs. If the enemy resists them casting a spell time and again, they'll get the idea that perhaps that enemy has a better save or is very lucky. This allows them to change tactics. The characters IMO have every reason to make such judgement calls themselves. The caster generally knows the 'DC' by how easily the spell affects 'joe average guy' (In theory).
Just as a warrior should have a rough estimate of his skill with weapons, and whether they are being supremely lucky, average, or if prehaps they are lucky to not stick themselves. If a fighter can never judge the relative 'level' of his hits, he can not choose certian tactics with any reliability.
For instance: A fighter will never Power Attack if they can not determine that the foe is ludicrisly easy to hit. Also if they keep missing, but have been making very good rolls, they will know to fight defensively and pray for luck or back up. Inversely a fighter may flee a very weak foe, simply because when luck is not on his side, he can't hit, but doesn't know its just bad luck and not a vastly superior foe.
In the case of Grykee. Her Greater Dominate has a DC range of 17-36. IMO she should know how much 'grab' she gets on the victim's mind (IE the DC) before they shake it off. There is a tremendous difference between the same victim shaking off a DC of 16-20, and shaking off a DC 30-35...
Should she try to GD Ursus, and fail, I the player would know its due to a really crappy roll on 'my part' and a really good roll on his part. However as it stands Grykee would never realize how pathetic Ursus' Will save is...
Whereas a comparable Wizzie cast GD with the same 'base' save DC (a flat 26 in this case), well... Ursus wouldn't stand much of a chance. If he succeeded, the Wizard might switch to another save type spell, figuring that as 20's don't come too often, Ursus must be a Willpower machine... The Wizard would be wrong, but he could still make that judgement call. Grykee can't.
Now don't get me wrong. I don't think this should be applied to rolls players shouldn't normally know about (Spot, Search, etc). But somethings should be obvious. If Ursus is sneaking and you roll a 1 for him, the character should be alerted by his own lack of stealth. It won't help him (if he is already spotted), but he could stop after that action. I've gone through stealth training, when you step on a twig and make a loud crackily noise, you can tell.
Anyway, just my two cents. I don't mind DMs making the rolls (its speeds it up), however it makes it a bit more difficult tactically if we aren't clued to the rolls themselves.
I'll go with your call.
--EvilE
Seriously now.
Paxus: I am continuing on the topic of OOC DC conversation started in the game thread.
My thoughts. Wizards, clerics, druids, etc that cast spells have set DCs. If the enemy resists them casting a spell time and again, they'll get the idea that perhaps that enemy has a better save or is very lucky. This allows them to change tactics. The characters IMO have every reason to make such judgement calls themselves. The caster generally knows the 'DC' by how easily the spell affects 'joe average guy' (In theory).
Just as a warrior should have a rough estimate of his skill with weapons, and whether they are being supremely lucky, average, or if prehaps they are lucky to not stick themselves. If a fighter can never judge the relative 'level' of his hits, he can not choose certian tactics with any reliability.
For instance: A fighter will never Power Attack if they can not determine that the foe is ludicrisly easy to hit. Also if they keep missing, but have been making very good rolls, they will know to fight defensively and pray for luck or back up. Inversely a fighter may flee a very weak foe, simply because when luck is not on his side, he can't hit, but doesn't know its just bad luck and not a vastly superior foe.
In the case of Grykee. Her Greater Dominate has a DC range of 17-36. IMO she should know how much 'grab' she gets on the victim's mind (IE the DC) before they shake it off. There is a tremendous difference between the same victim shaking off a DC of 16-20, and shaking off a DC 30-35...
Should she try to GD Ursus, and fail, I the player would know its due to a really crappy roll on 'my part' and a really good roll on his part. However as it stands Grykee would never realize how pathetic Ursus' Will save is...
Whereas a comparable Wizzie cast GD with the same 'base' save DC (a flat 26 in this case), well... Ursus wouldn't stand much of a chance. If he succeeded, the Wizard might switch to another save type spell, figuring that as 20's don't come too often, Ursus must be a Willpower machine... The Wizard would be wrong, but he could still make that judgement call. Grykee can't.
Now don't get me wrong. I don't think this should be applied to rolls players shouldn't normally know about (Spot, Search, etc). But somethings should be obvious. If Ursus is sneaking and you roll a 1 for him, the character should be alerted by his own lack of stealth. It won't help him (if he is already spotted), but he could stop after that action. I've gone through stealth training, when you step on a twig and make a loud crackily noise, you can tell.
Anyway, just my two cents. I don't mind DMs making the rolls (its speeds it up), however it makes it a bit more difficult tactically if we aren't clued to the rolls themselves.
I'll go with your call.
--EvilE
Paxus Asclepius
First Post
I may give you general impressions, as I may give a warrior a general impression of whether his miss was because he botched or because the other fellow has a ludicrous Expertise bonus; I'm trying to keep numbers off the table as much as I can, handing out only your hp losses. I understand your concern, but just as I don't tell Urden whether he rolled a 17 or a 3, I'd rather not tell you.
Jarval
Explorer
Ah, the joy of a +18 BAB. If I miss something twice in a row, it's safe to say that it's well protected... 
Now, I get both sides of the picture. I fully understand your viewpoint, Paxus. When I'm DMing, I like to keep the numbers out of the general flow of the game as much as I can. I prefer to go with a more narrative posting style, and I find that interrupting a combat post with regular inserts of "Uden rolls a 14 on his attack roll, and deals 20 points of damage" detracts from the general flow of the game. Not only that, but adding in all the dice rolls adds to the time it takes to write an update.
OTOH, without these numbers, the player's are lacking some important tactical information. If I don't know how much damage Uden deals with his attacks, I can't judge if a description of a foe "rolling with the blow and only taking light damage" means that 1) I rolled a grand total of 1 for damage, or 2) I rolled a critical hit, and the guy I'm pummeling is really bad-ass.
No, I really couldn't be sitting more firmly on the fence on this one...
Now, I get both sides of the picture. I fully understand your viewpoint, Paxus. When I'm DMing, I like to keep the numbers out of the general flow of the game as much as I can. I prefer to go with a more narrative posting style, and I find that interrupting a combat post with regular inserts of "Uden rolls a 14 on his attack roll, and deals 20 points of damage" detracts from the general flow of the game. Not only that, but adding in all the dice rolls adds to the time it takes to write an update.
OTOH, without these numbers, the player's are lacking some important tactical information. If I don't know how much damage Uden deals with his attacks, I can't judge if a description of a foe "rolling with the blow and only taking light damage" means that 1) I rolled a grand total of 1 for damage, or 2) I rolled a critical hit, and the guy I'm pummeling is really bad-ass.
No, I really couldn't be sitting more firmly on the fence on this one...
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Paxus Asclepius
First Post
If the fellow rolls with the blow, he's using Defensive Roll, or is a light fighter. If you roll piddling damage, it'll be "Urden nicks the gith's finger, irritating him." If he's truly badass, it'll be on the lines of "Urden smashes a blow into his opponent's shoulder with tremendous force, and is surprised and slightly awed to feel his weapon rebound from iron-like musculature."
evileeyore
Mrrrph
Alrighty then. I'll see how this works out.
Like I said I'm not against the narrative flow, in fact I am all for not getting HP figures in numerical form, but on the same token the tactical gamer in me cries about 'lack of recon'...
! wasn't trying to distract us from the all important game--EvilE
Like I said I'm not against the narrative flow, in fact I am all for not getting HP figures in numerical form, but on the same token the tactical gamer in me cries about 'lack of recon'...
! wasn't trying to distract us from the all important game
--EvilE
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Paxus Asclepius
First Post
Aside the confusing posts by Tailspinner, I've heard nothing from him or Wynter Wolf in a good long time. I'm thinking it might be time to recruit replacements, if those who are here and post wish them. Opinions, or check-ins from Tailspinner or Wynter Wolf?
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