Blade Runner rpg - having trouble getting sucked in

[payn]

I think there's an ample amount to interpret, but I bristle at Scott's idea being definitive when it's never fully made clear in the film and that he's always been alone in saying it. Again, I find him to be his own worst enemy when it comes to making films.

I think it's been many years since he's made a good movie, but I like his ideas on BR.

 

[MGibster]

I mean I think there are other clues, though I'm just saying what Scott said.

No, you're right, there are other clues. I think your interpretation is valid even if I don't share it.

 

[dragoner]

I think there's an ample amount to interpret, but I bristle at Scott's idea being definitive when it's never fully made clear in the film and that he's always been alone in saying it. Again, I find him to be his own worst enemy when it comes to making films.

Scott is sort of definitive though. I think I remember Ford saying that he played Deckard as human, though Jeter wrote that the Blade Runners were all replicants.

Edit: I will also add that I am fine with it either way, I think it is supposed to be ambiguous to add to the feeling if replicants are actual people or not.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Scott is sort of definitive though. I think I remember Ford saying that he played Deckard as human, though Jeter wrote that the Blade Runners were all replicants.

I mean, Scott isn't definitive because there's nothing definitive in the film. It doesn't matter what Scott says outside of it, even with is stuff in there it's still ambiguous, and his opinion is just that. It goes against what the actor, the writer, and the producer have said on the topic, as well as Dick himself, who has laid out in the past why him being human is important thematically.

 

[Helena Real]

I just received my book and starter set and, after reading all the intro material plus character creation rules in the Core Rulebook, I have to say that I'm deeply satisfied with the game so far.

And yes: this is pretty much a game about playing cops, but I don't feel like it's copaganda. Quite the contrary, I'd say. All of the archetypes, for example, are variations on being terrible people, not some power fantasy of "upholding the law" and being the "good guys" fighting the "bad guys" (AKA criminals).

In fact, the reward mechanics in the game are very much suggestive of a strong critique of the Blade Runners' role, from my perspective. The Promotion Points get you more specialities by following the law, it's true, but you can also lose them by bending or breaking the rules. Specialties are a way to increase your character's abilities, but a lot less relevant than skills overall, I think.

And what's the only way to increase skills? To gain Humanity Points which, at least as far I've read, can only be acquired by avoiding the most problematic behaviors Blade Runners are supposed to engage in on a regular basis. So, from a mechanics' point of view, the game rewards are a push and pull between doing cop sh*t and being more compassionate, humane, etc., with an emphasis, I'd say, on the human side of things.

All in all, it seems to me like a great adaptation of the original film's and novel's world into an RPG. Is it an RPG about playing awful people? For sure. But I think it doesn't glorify that awfulness and, instead, seeks to confront all players with the challenges and consequences of trying to be human in a deeply inhumane world. And I think that's an RPG not only worth having, but one that I'm looking forward to run at some point.

At least for me, RPGs that offer great mechanical support to "fantasies" (in the broadest sense of the word) other than killing outsiders to get richer and more powerful are more attractive than any heroic fantasies that have little to no self-awareness or sense of self criticism.

 

[payn]

I just received my book and starter set and, after reading all the intro material plus character creation rules in the Core Rulebook, I have to say that I'm deeply satisfied by the game so far.

And yes: this is pretty much a game about playing cops, but I don't feel like it's copaganda. Quite the contrary, I'd say. All of the archetypes, for example, are variations on being terrible people, not some power fantasy of "upholding the law" and being the "good guys" fighting the "bad guys" (AKA criminals).

In fact, rhe reward mechanics in the game are very much suggestive of a strong critique of the Blade Runners' role, from my perspective. The Promotion Points get you more specialities by following the law, it's true, but you can also lose them by bending or breaking the rules. Specialties are a way to increase your character's abilities, but a lot less relevant than skills overall, I think.

And what's the only way to increase skills? To gain Humanity Points which, at least as far I've read, can only be acquired by avoiding the most problematic behaviors Blade Runners are supposed to engage in on a regular basis. So, from a mechanics' point of view, the game rewards are a push and pull between doing cop sh*t and being more compassionate, humane, etc., with an emphasis, I'd say, on the human side of things.

All in all, it seems to me like a great adaptation of the original film's and novel's world into an RPG. Is it an RPG about playing awful people? For sure. But I think it doesn't glorify that awfulness and, instead, seeks to confront all players with the challenges and consequences of trying to be human in a deeply inhumane world. And I think that's an RPG not only worth having, but one that I'm looking forward to run at some point.

At least for me, RPGs that offer great mechanical support to "fantasies" (in the broadest sense of the word) other than killing outsiders to get richer and more powerful are more attractive than any heroic fantasies that have little to no self-awareness or sense of self criticism.

Thank you for the write up. What happens if you lean too far into or out of the job?

 

[Helena Real]

Thank you for the write up. What happens if you lean too far into or out of the job?

At least as far as I've read, if you don't rest enough (days are divided in 4 shifts and you need to dedicate at least 1 shift to relax in some fashion), you cannot get rid of stress and start adding more stress (1 per shift without rest).

In the case of going too far out of the job, you need to make a Connections roll (a skill). If you fail, you get a disciplinary action. If you lean too much into the job, you won't get Humanity Points which, in turn, won't allow you to improve your character, as Humanity Points are the only way to improve your skills. In other words: you won't get XP. So, the game is not so subtly pushing you to act less like an ideal (sic) Blade Runner and more like a human being, regardless of whether you're a human or replicant.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Context certainly matters. You likely wouldn't get a lot of people to sign up for Addict: The RPG of Emotional and Physical Abuse, but Vampire the Masquerade has had a lot of success over the years. The game has predator types, which is the primary method of how they get their blood. Some examples of predator types includes Alleycats who are brutes beating people up (mugging them) and drains them, a Cleaver is someone who feesd from their mortal family or friends, a Sandman sneaks up to people who are sleeping to drain them, and a Siren is someone who feeds almost exclusively on someone during or while feigning sex. Any player who picks Siren, needs to come to grips with the fact that their character is a serial rapist. Hell, my players were directly involved in human trafficking and all the horrors that surround that.

But the game doesn't treat the player characters as if they're the good guys, and that's really important. You're a monster who has to survive by doing bad things. Even if you manage to avoid doing those bad things for a while, there's a good chance you'll lose control and hurt someone you love. How do you hold on to a shred of your humanity while surviving?

On the other hand, most groups instead play VtM as Underworld: The RPG (no, not that one, the movie), which is, of course, the snake eating its own tail.

Especially in the 1990s, VtM was the game of katanas and trenchcoats and skin-tight PVC-clad vampires being awesome. Agonizing about addiction and abuse was something that Justin Achilli told them the game was about, but the game as played, not so much.

It sounds like, for better or worse, Free League made a game that's harder to disentangle from its thematic goals (two additional decades of game design evolution will do that).

I loved the Time of the Thin-Blooded -- vampires standing in for homeless crack addicts -- but I would be surprised to learn it got much playtime back in the day.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

From the 5th edition entry on Sirens, "You feed almost exclusively during or while feigning sex...you think of yourself as as sexy beast, but in your darkest moments, you fear that you're at best a problematic lover, at worst a habitual rapist." I'mm going to go ahead and ask, why is it okay for this kind of thing to go on off screen? One of the criticisms of The Godfather is that we never see the negative impact the Corleon's business has on regular people which helps cast them in a more sympathetic light. Would we feel so badly for Sonny if we saw him squeezing protection money out of a small business owner just trying to get by? To me, it's more problematic to ignore the negative aspects of the monster you're supposed to be role playing. It's what leads to superheroes with fangs compaigns.

For the record, you are playing VtM my preferred way. I just don't think it's the way most VtM player do it.

Being an awesome sexy vampire killing machine is, for better or worse, something with broader appeal than "vampire rapist."

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I think a lot of people miss that Deckard is a replicant, even after Scott said it with Gaff leaving the origami unicorn on the landing.

In at least one of the 10,000 official cuts of the movie, Deckard also has the eyeshine that replicants have. Scott clearly thinks Deckard's a replicant, although Harrison Ford apparently disagrees.

 

[payn]

For the record, you are playing VtM my preferred way. I just don't think it's the way most VtM player do it.

Being an awesome sexy vampire killing machine is, for better or worse, something with broader appeal than "vampire rapist."

From my brief time with vampire there were three types of player. Creeps, edgelords, and folks who wanted vampire D&D.

I'm hoping to avoid Blade Runner D&D. As for the other two, always want to avoid them.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

From my brief time with vampire there were three types of player. Creeps, edgelords, and folks who wanted vampire D&D.

I'm hoping to avoid Blade Runner D&D. As for the other two, always want to avoid them.

IME, there were also a weird number of people who viewed it as a way to try to get laid, presumably because it was the first RPG with a large number of female players. (For the record, I don't know anyone that worked for, although there were apparently some very horny LARP groups out there. Viva la Toreador.)

 

[dragoner]

In at least one of the 10,000 official cuts of the movie, Deckard also has the eyeshine that replicants have. Scott clearly thinks Deckard's a replicant, although Harrison Ford apparently disagrees.

I understand why people want Deckard to be human, because all the other humans we see in the film have problems, like Tyrell with his glasses, or Gaff with his cane. While Deckard is a "one man slaughterhouse" taking on the replicants, we're not dying out, these are not our replacements, more human than human ... the film is beautifully done, it has a lot of layers. Batty is like Mercer, the way he sticks a nail through his hand, real stigmata.

 

[aramis erak]

I think a lot of people miss that Deckard is a replicant, even after Scott said it with Gaff leaving the origami unicorn on the landing. I guess maybe Gaff could also be a Blade Runner, though like most healthy humanity had fled the Earth. He could be a detective, and Deckard is just wielded as a weapon against other replicants, which is the story of the second movie.

Given the timespan that the movies are set, the sequel pretty much proves Deckard is NOT a replicant. He's still going a decade plus... After all, Deckard is a major secondary character in the second movie.

I understand why people want Deckard to be human, because all the other humans we see in the film have problems, like Tyrell with his glasses, or Gaff with his cane. While Deckard is a "one man slaughterhouse" taking on the replicants, we're not dying out, these are not our replacements, more human than human ... the film is beautifully done, it has a lot of layers. Batty is like Mercer, the way he sticks a nail through his hand, real stigmata.

For him to be replicant, it would mean he's been built to a different self-destruct standard.
If BR2047 is canon, then either there's a subset without the four year limit, and Deckard was one such, or Deckard is human.
And I don't see a long-life replicant dumped into the LAPD in the timeframe of the first film; in 2047? maybe... Nah, still not likely; the company cannot afford for a replicant in LAPD to live a full lifespan, as LAPD are quite likely to overreact, and the 4th b-day is celebrated with either shutdown of organs, or a bullet..

 

[payn]

Given the timespan that the movies are set, the sequel pretty much proves Deckard is NOT a replicant. He's still going a decade plus... After all, Deckard is a major secondary character in the second movie.

For him to be replicant, it would mean he's been built to a different self-destruct standard.
If BR2047 is canon, then either there's a subset without the four year limit, and Deckard was one such, or Deckard is human.
And I don't see a long-life replicant dumped into the LAPD in the timeframe of the first film; in 2047? maybe... Nah, still not likely; the company cannot afford for a replicant in LAPD to live a full lifespan, as LAPD are quite likely to overreact, and the 4th b-day is celebrated with either shutdown of organs, or a bullet..

IDK, its a really interesting thought exercise. If Deckard is designed for longer life span (nexus 7 like Rachel), and to pass as human, he could learn a lot about going undetected by being in the LAPD and detecting replicants himself. Hiding in plain sight if you will. It also has interesting implications in the second film if Deckard is a replicant and he and Rachel were able to reproduce (could have been a long term goal of the Nexus 7?) that is even more existential to humanity. The possibilities and ambiguity are definitely interesting parts of this story.

 

[overgeeked]

Got my set and book. Good system, but thematically I'm having trouble getting sucked in. In fact, I have this odd feeling that something is turning me off. Something isn't sitting right. I keep stopping reading the adventure.

Partly, it is the 6 point body text font which is a huge mistake for GMs reference and prep in an adventure, but thats my only presentation complaint.

Something else is bugging me though. Rep-detect officers are about retiring homocidal and defective/problematic models (e.g. n-8). All models have the potential to be problems (Wallace's big secret no matter the model anyways..as they can have their own emotional response in addition to reps being innately narcissistic.
There are groups of people who are organized to hate or always-give-a-pass to reps. This rpg really plays up for rep sympathy and youre a crap person if you think otherwise.
It smacks too much of today's popular extremism news trends. Every criminal/shoplifter/murderer is misunderstood, drow/orcs arent really evil, and every policeman is a bigot, etc.

Am I not seeing this correctly? Help me understand how I'm supposed to enjoy a game that feels like a mirror of the worst un-fun current news tripe and just more cop-trauma rather than cop-drama.

We played it at a recent convention and the themes were presented accurate to the rpg. Now Im prepping to run for my group. I get that youre supposed to be conflicted, but this seems a bit cliche, depressing, and I worry about redundancy during multiple adventures on the 'fun' factor. Inflicting real-world ptsd on my players seems like a pretty miserable way to spend my gaming time.

How is it that Cyberpunk and Judge Dredd can be fun themes and this seem so icky?

If you’re looking for a pure shoot-em-up, this isn’t the game for you. It’s specifically a game about empathy and what it means to be human and blurring the line between human and robot. And empathizing with the Other. That’s the point.

"The guard captain from Kergan Trading company will give you 200 gold if you take care of the goblin tribe in Wusswood that have been attacking their caravans."

Now add in empathizing with and humanizing the goblins and having some in the town and on your team.

It's pretty much what I expected from Blade Runner. Are cyberpunk and Judge Dredd fun, really, unless you squint hard? All three are classic dystopias - individuals might try to do good and even succeed on a small scale (or not, depending on player preferences), but they're unlikely to ever change the system.

Most cyberpunk is fun, to me, because it’s a hard-scrabble fight against the system. You’re the underdog and you can’t win, but it’s still fun.

Judge Dredd is an odd one because it’s such a subtle parody of fascism a lot of people treat it as being pro-fascist. It’s basically copaganda at that point. You’re the big bad untouchable lawman and you get to be the boot on the neck. Sure, some people think that’s fun. I guess. But it’s about as opposite to what I find fun that I can’t see it as anything other than ick.

 

[overgeeked]

Batty is like Mercer, the way he sticks a nail through his hand, real stigmata.

There’s so much they left out if the adaptation. Such a great book. I just finished it for the second time this year a few days ago. Mood organs. Buster Friendly. Mercerism. Electric animals. The replicant police station. Pris being Rachel. The wives. Finding the frog. On and on.

 

[dragoner]

Given the timespan that the movies are set, the sequel pretty much proves Deckard is NOT a replicant. He's still going a decade plus... After all, Deckard is a major secondary character in the second movie.

For him to be replicant, it would mean he's been built to a different self-destruct standard.
If BR2047 is canon, then either there's a subset without the four year limit, and Deckard was one such, or Deckard is human.
And I don't see a long-life replicant dumped into the LAPD in the timeframe of the first film; in 2047? maybe... Nah, still not likely; the company cannot afford for a replicant in LAPD to live a full lifespan, as LAPD are quite likely to overreact, and the 4th b-day is celebrated with either shutdown of organs, or a bullet..

Though when Tyrell is asked about Rachel, he doesn't say she has a time limit, and she asks Deckard if he had taken a Voight-Kampf, and the deal with memories, it's about him finding out who he is, as much as the externalities. He could indeed only be three, we never know, and in the end Gaff says it's too bad she won't live, but who does? Also Gaff says "you did a man's job", the chief has a sort of fetish for him, and yet calls him little people. He fights with Leon and walks away, Batty lets him live, etc.. A lot of little clues besides the Unicorn; though it is ambiguous on purpose, that is the point of the film.

I love BR 2047, it is also about what it means to be human. You're right in that it could be a retcon him being human, though he beats K in a fight again like K beat Sapper in the beginning, and look at how easily Luv dealt with humans, as we are "fragile" and so.

 

[dragoner]

There’s so much they left out if the adaptation. Such a great book. I just finished it for the second time this year a few days ago. Mood organs. Buster Friendly. Mercerism. Electric animals. The replicant police station. Pris being Rachel. The wives. Finding the frog. On and on.

True, though I think the whole suppressed religion part might not have played so well in the theater. He had a reoccurring theme of ancient Christians vs the Roman Empire. Same as I doubt the game has people rolling up disabilities if human, it would probably be accurate to both the book and film, people would have a fit though. PKD did do a twist on human vs android in Second Variety, so it wouldn't have be out of character for him. The citadel press versions of his stories are really great, because they included his commentary. What would be a great film is his entry from Dangerous Visions, "Faith of Our Fathers" and that could be also be made into a SFRPG as well.

 

[billd91]

IDK, its a really interesting thought exercise. If Deckard is designed for longer life span (nexus 7 like Rachel), and to pass as human, he could learn a lot about going undetected by being in the LAPD and detecting replicants himself. Hiding in plain sight if you will. It also has interesting implications in the second film if Deckard is a replicant and he and Rachel were able to reproduce (could have been a long term goal of the Nexus 7?) that is even more existential to humanity. The possibilities and ambiguity are definitely interesting parts of this story.

I think Deckard's presence and interactions with Wallace suggest Deckard isn't a replicant. Wallace desperately wants Replicants to be able to have offspring, and so he wants to know more about Rachel and her child. He has some info about Rachel as a replicant - enough to make a physical duplicate. But if Deckard is also an experimental replicant from the Tyrell Corporation, Wallace seems to know absolutely nothing about it. If he did know, he'd be a lot more careful about him since he would have half the pair of replicants that produced viable offspring.

Same with the replicant liberationists. They seem to think he's human too or they'd be less willing to have him killed. At the very least, they seem to think he's not crucial to the idea of replicants potentially having offspring.

All of this suggests to me that Villeneuve wasn't that interested in continuing to interact with the issue of Deckard as a replicant/human. I think he's strengthening the implication he's human.