Bladesinger and Duelist AC bonus... do they stack?

[Kae'Yoss]

Seems to be that by the rules it stacks, though there are opinions by some that it shouldn't.

Personally, I don't have a problem with it stacking at all. It's pretty darn unlikely that a fighter/wiz/sorc type is going to have a 30 int or some such. Even then, that character has spent every gold piece he has to gain Int items and sucks in every other respect. Additionally if the players does do something as silly as a monk/duelist/bladesinger/wizard, whatever combo... he's spread to thin to be particularly powerful anyway. He might have a fairly high AC, but he's pretty weak in every other way. He can do a bunch of stuff, but all of it badly. Seems more than balanced to me and fits the rules.

The Wiz/Ftr/Freeport Pirate/Duelist/Bladesinger would probably be not that bad, as you still get a good BAB and decent saves...

 

[Arravis]

Well, I wouldn't count Freeport Pirate since it's a non-WoTC class...
Anyway...
Yes, you can min-max anything, but thankfully those kinds of players aren't allowed in my game. I'm just trying to find out what's allowable by the rules and what isn't. It seems to be that it is allowable and with no third-party classes thrown into the mix it's still balanced and fair.

It's like having a player that's a Monk/Druid/Cleric/Wizard/Bard/Rogue... sure, he can use a ton of items, gets availability to every spell out there, has all kinds of neat powers and abilities... but simply sucks at everything.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Yes, you can min-max anything, but thankfully those kinds of players aren't allowed in my game. I'm just trying to find out what's allowable by the rules and what isn't.

Well, taking duelist AND bladesinger to get the int bonus twice is one of the out-of-the-book examples for min/maxing.

Also, something doesn't hasn't to be bad only cause it isn't WotC. There's a lot of great d20 Stuff out there.

 

[Arravis]

Well, the reasons the character is picking up duelist and bladesinger has nothing to do with min-maxing at all, it fits the character 100%. The character is prototypical rapier & magic wielder. Both prestige classes fit like a glove.

Anyway... I'm not meaning to knock anything outside of WoTC. I'm assuming that WoTC's R&D teams make sure that all their standard classes, prestige classes, etc are balanced in respect to each other and are designed to work in conjunction with all other WoTC classes. It would be impossible for them to also take into account balance issues with 3rd party products. Which is why I want to leave those complications out of the mix of this discussion.

 

[Hardhead]

Anyway... I'm not meaning to knock anything outside of WoTC. I'm assuming that WoTC's R&D teams make sure that all their standard classes, prestige classes, etc are balanced in respect to each other and are designed to work in conjunction with all other WoTC classes.

Ahahahahahaha! Hahahahaha! Hahahahahaha. Whew. Wipes eyes.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Well, the reasons the character is picking up duelist and bladesinger has nothing to do with min-maxing at all, it fits the character 100%. The character is prototypical rapier & magic wielder. Both prestige classes fit like a glove.

I think that a character shouldn't alternate between several PrC's. He should pick one and take that to the end. After that, he can take another (if he must), but nothing else.

IMC you can take as many PrC's as you like, but every after the first will cause XP-penalties. You can circumvent that by finishing the PrC.

I'm assuming that WoTC's R&D teams make sure that all their standard classes, prestige classes, etc are balanced in respect to each other and are designed to work in conjunction with all other WoTC classes. It would be impossible for them to also take into account balance issues with 3rd party products. Which is why I want to leave those complications out of the mix of this discussion.

It is impossible for them to balance all Wizards stuff with each other. The amount of stuff out in Wizard material is just too much to assure that every class works well with every other class. I mean some of their stuff is designed badly and doesn't even work on its own. That's OK, you can't be perfect all the time, but you can't assume that everything they touch turns to gold.

So I can only advise you to use 3rd-party stuff, but review it before allowing it. I advise the latter with Wiz-stuff, too.

 

[Arravis]

I'm not assuming any such thing. But there is a bit more quality control in WoTC than in some of the d20 companies out there. Some are great, but some are completely out of whack. WoTC makes its fair share of mistakes, but it tends not to go to some of the extremes I've seen. Anyway, that's irrelevant, I'm just trying to put some controls on the issue at hand. You could argue that Bladesinger/Duelist combo is overpowered with your home-brewed prestige class... but that, like 3rd party prestige classes, is moot.

All prestige classes in my game are there cause I placed them there, it's not something the players can simply "choose" to pick up without the DM's permission. Each prestige class has to have a teacher available to pass on the knowledge, etc... that's controlled by the DM, not the players.

Lastly, the point of a character having two prestige classes is irrelevant. You can choose that rule in your own campaign, but since this is the Rules forum, we're discussing official rules and that is allowed by the official rules.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I'm not assuming any such thing. But there is a bit more quality control in WoTC than in some of the d20 companies out there. Some are great, but some are completely out of whack. WoTC makes its fair share of mistakes, but it tends not to go to some of the extremes I've seen. Anyway, that's irrelevant, I'm just trying to put some controls on the issue at hand. You could argue that Bladesinger/Duelist combo is overpowered with your home-brewed prestige class... but that, like 3rd party prestige classes, is moot.

Of course there are some really bad d20 companies out there, but there aren't all bad. And there are some really bad D&D products out there, but there aren't all bad. So you have to look up the stuff in both situations.

And yes, I argue that Bladesinger/Duelist combo is overpowered with or without any homebrew or d20 Material.

All prestige classes in my game are there cause I placed them there, it's not something the players can simply "choose" to pick up without the DM's permission. Each prestige class has to have a teacher available to pass on the knowledge, etc... that's controlled by the DM, not the players.

Which is also a house rule. Normally, you don't need a teacher for a PrC unless the PrC states it. If you don't want houserules in the discussion, don't bring them in yourself

Lastly, the point of a character having two prestige classes is irrelevant. You can choose that rule in your own campaign, but since this is the Rules forum, we're discussing official rules and that is allowed by the official rules.

Since we speak of official rules. I can't find the bladesinger PrC anywhere in the official rules. Not in the PHB, not in the DMG, not in the MM, and the SRD doesn't mention it, either. And these are the only really official rules.

The Bladesinger comes from a Rules supplyment (namely: Tome and Blood, the Tome and Blood Web Enhancement, Races of Faerûn, or Complete Warrior - pick the one you like) and shows that even stuff from Wizards doesn't work well with each other all the time.

 

[Arravis]

I simply don't see how it's overpowered and it follows the rules of WoTC's own products.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I simply don't see how it's overpowered and it follows the rules of WoTC's own products.

Well, it's because you get the same ability score twice to AC. If that's OK with you, I renew my request to play in your game. There are a couple of combos within the wizard books I'd like to try out, but no DM would let me.