D&D 5E Bladesinger/arcane trickster

[Adb0782]

edit: double

 

[Adb0782]

If you are playing a multiclass bladesinger/Rogue yes I definitely think it is because it also gives you two more casts a day and you will be losing some from the Rogue levels. For any bladesinger it is better than reslient constitution IMO.

That said do what you think is best. If it is a single class bladesinger push dex +2 or take fey touched, either are good options.

My main focus was on the stats you gave: Fey touched and +1int/+1con would let you push two stats up by another +1, which is good, while also giving you some spells. IMO D16, C16, I18 + misty step&hex is about the same as D20, C15, I16. But both of those are substantially better than D18, C16, I16 + constitution save proficiency. I think there are better combinations than resiliency will offer.

Yea you are right, but im asking myself how much would be bad if i dont take warcaster and neither resilient...going for:

Fey touched, +1 int and + 1 con, +2 dex, + 2 int, + 2 dex...but it can suffer a lot at end of tier 2, beginning tier 3 when monsters start to hit no metter what...and i suppose hitting melee will be harder considering also this campaign drops few magic items and the not common objects are treated like rare ones, scaling. Its also true that hex can always be used to give disadvantage on spell saves (disintegration can maybe be finaly worth an use lol, but well i can use it on many lower spells too, even mindsliver can be used for the same reason, of course hex works better, but mindsliver is a cantrip and dont require concentration) and misty step is lifesaver.

Its not easy to choose.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

Its also true that hex can always be used to give disadvantage on spell saves

I'm afraid that's not true. Hex just gives disadvantage on ability checks, not saving throws. It's more a flavor aspect of the spell than a major strategic element.

Hex is a cool spell, but it's really not worth getting a feat for when you are already a Wizard. By level 3 you will have better uses for concentration under many circumstances. You'll get as much or more damage out of Shadow Blade, Flaming Sphere, or putting Dragons Breath on a familiar, and those are just off-the-top-of-my-head, damage-oriented ways to use your concentration on second level spells.

It is a solid feat choice for a lot of classes because it gets a lot of mileage out of a single spell slot, and if you are a Fighter, Monk, someone picking up eldritch blast, or someone otherwise making an exceptional number of attacks in a round, you get the damage bonus a lot of times. But for a wizard without a huge premium on spell slots there are better things to concentrate on, even when you are making two attacks a round. I'm not saying a Bladesinger wouldn't or shouldn't use Hex, I'm just saying that if you get Hex it is going to be a pretty small part of your bag of tricks by an early level.

 

[auburn2]

I'm afraid that's not true. Hex just gives disadvantage on ability checks, not saving throws. It's more a flavor aspect of the spell than a major strategic element.

Hex is a cool spell, but it's really not worth getting a feat for when you are already a Wizard. By level 3 you will have better uses for concentration under many circumstances. You'll get as much or more damage out of Shadow Blade, Flaming Sphere, or putting Dragons Breath on a familiar, and those are just off-the-top-of-my-head, damage-oriented ways to use your concentration on second level spells.

It is a solid feat choice for a lot of classes because it gets a lot of mileage out of a single spell slot, and if you are a Fighter, Monk, someone picking up eldritch blast, or someone otherwise making an exceptional number of attacks in a round, you get the damage bonus a lot of times. But for a wizard without a huge premium on spell slots there are better things to concentrate on, even when you are making two attacks a round. I'm not saying a Bladesinger wouldn't or shouldn't use Hex, I'm just saying that if you get Hex it is going to be a pretty small part of your bag of tricks by an early level.

We make use of the disadvantage all the time in our Party. Either hex strength or dex to enable grapple, shove, tumble or overun or hex wisdom to make it easier for the Rogue or others in your party to hide.

We also use hex in conversation quite a bit, use it on an enemies Charisma to make it easier for you to tell if they are lying or use it on their wisdom to make it easier for you to lie to them. It is strictly better than Friends for this because the enemy does not automatically know they have been enchanted. We generally prefer it over Charm person for the same reason, and because they do not get a save. You can also use it while gambling. If you are creative it is a very versitile spell.

I would agree hex is not worth getting on its own, but as far as enchantment spells go, Hex is a pretty good one to pair with Misty Step and Fey touched.

For a bladesinger you are right about concentration to a degree, blur is king of concentration spells for a bladesinger once they hit level three. I used hypnotic pattern a lot too at higher levels. But you are not casting those every fight, and when you aren't hex as a level 1 casting is a nice spell for a single fight, especially when the first casting of the day is free. Comparing it to shadow blade at 6th level and above - Hex with an attack and booming blade is going to usually do more base damage than two shadowblade attacks, after the first round you can get a third attack with TWF and do quite a bit more.

 

[Adb0782]

I'm afraid that's not true. Hex just gives disadvantage on ability checks, not saving throws. It's more a flavor aspect of the spell than a major strategic element.

Hex is a cool spell, but it's really not worth getting a feat for when you are already a Wizard. By level 3 you will have better uses for concentration under many circumstances. You'll get as much or more damage out of Shadow Blade, Flaming Sphere, or putting Dragons Breath on a familiar, and those are just off-the-top-of-my-head, damage-oriented ways to use your concentration on second level spells.

It is a solid feat choice for a lot of classes because it gets a lot of mileage out of a single spell slot, and if you are a Fighter, Monk, someone picking up eldritch blast, or someone otherwise making an exceptional number of attacks in a round, you get the damage bonus a lot of times. But for a wizard without a huge premium on spell slots there are better things to concentrate on, even when you are making two attacks a round. I'm not saying a Bladesinger wouldn't or shouldn't use Hex, I'm just saying that if you get Hex it is going to be a pretty small part of your bag of tricks by an early level.

My bad, i readed it wrong.
But anyway this make mind sliver better for my purpose and its even a cantrip i can spam after one attack (it scale a bit and i can use it instead than booming blade just if i want it really fail the next save, except against wizards it should mostly works, as shocking grasp its for if i really need movement without get OA.)

About hex, i dont know what else i can pick of first lv, and also with shadow touched (that is worst bcs it dont have misty step that i need to pick anyway) i dont find anything really useful...

 

[Adb0782]

We make use of the disadvantage all the time in our Party. Either hex strength or dex to enable grapple, shove, tumble or overun or hex wisdom to make it easier for the Rogue or others in your party to hide.

We also use hex in conversation quite a bit, use it on an enemies Charisma to make it easier for you to tell if they are lying or use it on their wisdom to make it easier for your to lie to them. It is strictly better than Friends for this because the enemy does not know they have been enchanted. We generally prefer it over Charm person for the same reason, and because they do not get a save. You can use it while gambling. If you are creative it is a very versitile spell.

I would agree hex is not worth getting on its own, but as far as enchantment spells go, Hex is a pretty good one to pair with Misty Step and Fey touched.

Fey touched feat gets Misty Step, a 1st level enchantment or diviniation and a +1Int/Wis/Charisma. As a feat that is pretty awesome and for a caster it give the equivalent of two more spell castings a day (one 1st, one 2nd) plus two more spells prepared. There are other good options for this feat besides Hex - charm person, command, bless, Hunter's Mark (although Hex is strictly better than Hunters Mark), tasha's laughter and beast bond are all useful.

For a bladesinger you are right about concentration to a degree, blur is king of concentration spells for a bladesinger once they hit level three. I used hypnotic pattern a lot too at higher levels. But you are not casting those every fight, and when you aren't hex as a level 1 casting is a nice spell for a single fight, especially when the first casting of the day is free. Comparing it to shadow blade at 6th level and above - Hex with an attack and booming blade is going to usually do more base damage than two shadowblade attacks, ater the first round you can get a third attack with TWF and do quite a bit more.

This is an use i didnt think about hex, nice outcombat use, but yea thats also what i was thinking about, that it can boost some fight where i cant cast shadow blade bcs im off spell slots.

About blur, you are not the first saying me its really necessary, but its not better wait next lv spell and combo blink with mirror image that are both no concentration spells?

 

[auburn2]

This is an use i didnt think about hex, nice outcombat use, but yea thats also what i was thinking about, that it can boost some fight where i cant cast shadow blade bcs im off spell slots.

About blur, you are not the first saying me its really necessary, but its not better wait next lv spell and combo blink with mirror image that are both no concentration spells?

Blink is good too, mirror image is good at low levels, neither of these use concentration.

The problem with blink is it is not reliable, it is kond of a random effect, but when it doesn't work you don't have blur up. At high levels mirror image will only last 1 or 2 rounds, that means you are going to spend a lot of time casting it again and again.

The standard tough fight is going to be blur and bladesong on the first turn. You can follow that up with blink on your second turn but then it is going to be your third turn before you do any damage. Add mirror image and it is a 4th turn. There have been fights where that was the play though. If you do that you will be really, really hard to hit, even with an AOE spell.

 

[Adb0782]

Blink is good too, mirror image is good at low levels, neither of these use concentration.

The problem with blink is it is not reliable, it is kond of a random effect, but when it doesn't work you don't have blur up. At high levels mirror image will only last 1 or 2 rounds, that means you are going to spend a lot of time casting it again and again.

The standard tough fight is going to be blur and bladesong on the first turn. You can follow that up with blink on your second turn but then it is going to be your third turn before you do any damage. Add mirror image and it is a 4th turn. There have been fights where that was the play though. If you do that you will be really, really hard to hit, even with an AOE spell.

Yea blink is kinda random covering only 50% of times, but cast blur so often it mean SB never enter in game, and still less going getting highter lv spell slots...at 3rd blur start to fight also against haste...and also whoever has blindsight (and going on with lv gonna be lots of bad guys) and truesight can simply ignore it, so if i really dont want be hitted haste looks better (+2 ac, extra movement, eventually free disengage it mean they have to have a huge movement for catch me and maybe they gonna provoke OA, or extra attack...while anyway disadvantage on any attacks against me it mean a boost of +5 AC if im not wrong with math) as i can still cast eventually blink and/or blindness (if i need) that give me the same disadvantage to be hitted without be concentration (but true its only against one creature). Its also true that it save a 3rd spell slot (haste) that i can use for counterspell, dispel or simply fireball...but i suppose it gonna count only till i have enought 3rd lv spell slots.

Probably play it with SB and Blink make it more fragile and it need some more tactics, but it boost melee damage a lot (if you consider SB + shortsword booming blade and still more if the DM let me cast BB on SB, and if he'll keep negating everything of this ill ask him to allow me to use that sphere you see in the screenshot i took, that its his focus arcano, like a finesse weapon which im proficient and that deal just 1d1 damage on a hit lol.)

With blur up its more tanky' but you can count only on BB for melee damage.

 

[auburn2]

Yea blink is kinda random covering only 50% of times, but cast blur so often it mean SB never enter in game, and still less going getting highter lv spell slots...at 3rd blur start to fight also against haste...and also whoever has blindsight (and going on with lv gonna be lots of bad guys) and truesight can simply ignore it, so if i really dont want be hitted haste looks better (+2 ac, extra movement, eventually free disengage it mean they have to have a huge movement for catch me and maybe they gonna provoke OA, or extra attack...while anyway disadvantage on any attacks against me it mean a boost of +5 AC if im not wrong with math) as i can still cast eventually blink and/or blindness (if i need) that give me the same disadvantage to be hitted without be concentration (but true its only against one creature). Its also true that it save a 3rd spell slot (haste) that i can use for counterspell, dispel or simply fireball...but i suppose it gonna count only till i have enought 3rd lv spell slots.

Probably play it with SB and Blink make it more fragile and it need some more tactics, but it boost melee damage a lot (if you consider SB + shortsword booming blade and still more if the DM let me cast BB on SB, and if he'll keep negating everything of this ill ask him to allow me to use that sphere you see in the screenshot i took, that its his focus arcano, like a finesse weapon which im proficient and that deal just 1d1 damage on a hit lol.)

With blur up its more tanky' but you can count only on BB for melee damage.

Play like you want, whatever makes you feel good.

That said in my experience Blur is the better combat option than shadowblade for difficult encounters. This is not a high-damage build and you should focus on being tanky, becasue that is what you are.

 

[Adb0782]

Maybe im wrong with math or i forgot something than,
but a fighter of lv 11 (where is probably where it should shine more due the 3 attack per round) with a GW and GWM feat, deal something like 21 (3d12) + 30 (GWM) + 15 (str) = 66 (plus eventually superiority dices and action surge, plus around a +2/3 due GWF style. I suppose we can consider around 80/85 the real total, bcs of the limited use of SD and AS)

Paladin 11 lv Oath of vengance: 14 (2d12), +10 (2d8 Improved smite) + 20 (GWM) + 10 (str) +7 (2d6 assuming he cast the spell) + 27 (+1d12 + 1d8 +10 +5) + 3 (GWF) if he is in haste (and he shuld be lol) with advantage for one minute if he need its = 91 plus he can smite with a max of 3rd lv slot, so he can add 11d8 more (at least 1 slot of 3rd lv is used for haste), for a total of 146 without crit (but having only 10 spell slots and only 3 of 3rd level, the real dpr should be around 100, but honestly, this is neither his stronger aspect, bcs this guy with all that auras, heal power and heavy armors, is made for be the real tank in my opinion, plus deal a very huge ammount of damage, He can ebven go board and shield and still deal tons of damage with a demigod AC and d10 for hit points, maybe it is a bit overpowered compared with other martial classes, considering he is also half caster). Multiclassing sorcerer give lots of advantages that ill not write here, but he can even quicken "hold person" with sorcery points, and auto crit with smite on it in the same turn...something really brutal.

my HW with shapeshooter, if he get the 3rd attack on a 3rd creature, at lv 11 deal 10 (2d8 planar warrior) + 30 (Shapeshooter) + 15 (3d8 bow) + 15 (dex) + 5 (1d8 hunter's mark if i can cast it on the first round)= 75 (but its below this bcs i often have to choose between moving the mark and deal the 2d8 force damage, as both are BA)

a pure arcane trickster at lv 11 use SB just 2 minute for long rest, he deal 10 (2d8 SB) + 18 (5d6 SA) + 25 (5d8 BB) + 5 (DEX) = 58, and if he go for a second attack via BS 6 he lose significantly SA, being anyway better than the pure AT.

A Barbarian is kinda similar with the rogue output, while probably the zealot one is few under the 70 dpr.

i never played a monk so i dont know so well its mechanics, but many people said me he keep being a bit underpowered.

Bards, Clerics, Druids are for sure below as melee output

warlock i suppose its below but honestly, maybe i miss something about it, as i played it pact of blade but multicassed with a barb bear totem (just 3 lv dip barb for abuse armor of agathys, get advantage at will and some melee damage output with rage) keeping AC intentionally low to 17 for be hitted kinda often. For what i needed it works really well, but i just need to cast armor of agathys and fire shield, maybe some darknes sometime that being a drow i casted from racial. As a pure warlock i more often see the version that spam eldricht blast and that i find so boring to play. Anyway also my barblock i think it deal around 70 per round at 11 lv considering everything also out of turn.

our guy with a SB of 3rd lv (but he can upcast to 5th lv if he want) and BB applying (and i found out that also Jeremy Crawford in practice allowed to do it, bcs seem this specification was born for other intent than nerf SB, i just dont get why there is still no errata, probably bcs "it counts as a simple malee weapon" it already refers to everything, including price and so including how many gp is worth, but you can find more details here: ) deal anyway something like: 15 (3d8 SB) + 40 (8d8 SB + BB) +10 (dex assuming he maximize it) = 65 (and even if we want to read it strictly RAW he can use Spirit Shroud and a normal rapier with BB for a very similar output damage), and with contingency i suppose will be kinda easy to upcast it to lv 5 slot for still more damage, but if we dont have SB the output go down to a low 45 that is pretty awful. If i didnt miss anything (which is anyway possible and near to sure ) the damage output in malee for BS is anyway kinda hight if use a shadow blade (or spirit shroud) even without spend an hight lv spell slot with SB (3rd lv spell slot is already ok).

Anyway what i mean is, im not sure its so true that BS is not good in deal melee damage, for sure there are stronger dpr (as stronger tanks, any heavy armored class with shield proficiency and 3 lv dip in barb bear totem tank better due the huge ammount of hp and resistence that can ignore crits), there are some class and for sure some multiclass build better for it, but he is also (or well, basically) a full wizard and when cast anything instead than SB is more usefull he can still concentrate on that specific spell and attack melee with just a rapier and BB, but when there is nothing better to cast, or when he want to save spell slots, i more see him good for deal melee damage with SB than just stay there to get the more attacks he can with blur (except against some enemy hitting really hard, but many of those enemies often have "blindsight"), especially in my party that count on a paladin, a cleric, a moon druid and a rogue, except the rogue, anyone else tank kinda well and together they get most of the attacks.

Honestly, im starting to think that i want make him sort of antimage character (also for background's thematic reasons), having so many big guys in the party helps i suppose, and maybe pick and upcast false life (even to lv 4 later on, but lv 2 in the beginning) can be a good idea also for avoid to go down by crits that before or later gonna hit as blur, blindness or even greater invisibility, dont work with things with blindsight.
I can even think to pick mage slayer as feat, making this progression:
+2 dex, +2 int, mage slayer, + 2 int, + 2 dex or changing one stat increase with war caster or resilient if i need to boost concentration.
i'd like to get the feat also for thematic reason, but also bcs it help with saving throw if i get near the caster, bcs normally a fight dont have more than one offesìnsive caster and at same time can (very few times honestly) boost dpr with OA or easier broke the enemy concentration on some nasty spell. The problem keep being the odd con, but if i want int and dex both maximized seem it must stay odd except get resilient.