Blasphemy and Disjunction discussion

[Cheiromancer]

Let me start out with blasphemy. The easiest way to deal with it would be to simply cap it at 20th level. Or 25th, if you are generous. A more complicated way might be to allow a saving throw to reduce or negate its effects. The following might be one way of doing that:

[sblock=revised Blasphemy]Blasphemy
Evocation [Evil, Sonic]

Level: Clr 7, Evil 7
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 40 ft.
Area: Non-evil creatures in a 40-ft.-radius spread centered on you
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None or Will partial or Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

Evil creatures, and creatures whose Hit Dice exceed your caster level are unaffected by blasphemy. Non-evil creatures with less than 10 Hit Dice are not allowed a save. They and any non-evil creature within the area of a blasphemy spell who fail their saving throw suffer a number of ill effects determined by the difference between their Hit Dice and your caster level:

• Creatures whose Hit Dice exceed (your caster level -5) suffer two ill effects.
• Creatures whose Hit Dice exceed (your caster level -10) suffer three ill effects.
• Creatures whose Hit Dice do not exceed (your caster level -10) suffer four ill effects.

If the creature succeeds in a Will saving throw they suffer fewer ill effects than if they failed:

• Creatures with 10 Hit Dice suffer one fewer effect.
• Creatures with 15 Hit Dice suffer two fewer effects.
• Creatures with 20 Hit Dice suffer three fewer effects.
• Creatures with 25 Hit Dice suffer no effects.

The ill effects are, in order: dazed, weakened, paralyzed and killed.

Dazed
The creature can take no actions for 1 round, though it defends itself normally.

Weakened
The creature’s Strength score decreases by 2d6 points for 2d4 rounds.

Paralyzed
The creature is paralyzed and helpless for 1d10 minutes.

Killed
Living creatures die. Undead creatures are destroyed.

Furthermore, if you are on your home plane when you cast this spell, non-evil extraplanar creatures within the area whose HD do not exceed your caster level are instantly banished back to their home planes if they fail their saves. Creatures so banished cannot return for at least 24 hours. This effect takes place regardless of whether the creatures hear the blasphemy.[/sblock]

***

Next is Mordenkainen's disjunction. It has the potential to destroy items, and dispels spells without a caster level check. I'm not sure there is a fix- this spell is kind of a "nuclear option". However its disuse creates a lacuna in a spellcaster's repertoire; after 20th level there are few effective ways of dispelling an opponent's spells.

The easiest fix is to remove the cap from greater dispel magic. A slightly more restrictive approach would be to allow Empower to have an unusual effect when applied to greater dispel magic; it raises the level cap by 10.

Some products have a section of "new uses for old skills". We could have a similar section of "new uses for old feats". But it would be nice to have more than one entry in the section!

***

Other problematic spells you've called out are Shapechange, polymorph any object and gate (1 target). I suspect that true resurrection belongs on that list as well, but we are discussing that over in the [Undeath] and [Life] thread.

***

There is currently a discussion in the rules forum concerning Black Puddings vs. Magical Adamantine. A Black Pudding could spend all day trying to digest a magical adamantine sword, without success, but if struck by it could destroy it in a round if the item failed its reflex save. This discrepancy is incongruous, and I am not sure if it should be so easy to destroy powerful magic items. I suggested in the thread that an item add its hardness to its Reflex saves, not merely its Fortitude saves. There might be other solutions.

Anyway, I thought it would be good to have these problematic spells and effects collected in one place for discussion.

[edit] Actually, it might be better to be able to find particular problematic things by looking at their thread titles.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

I'm going to suggest an entirely unimaginative alternative for Mordenkainen's disjunction, but one that I think might work anyway. It borrows a little from energy drain.

Dispel Magic, Superior
Abjuration

Level: Magic 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target or Area: One spellcaster, creature, or object; or 40-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None; see text
Spell Resistance: No

You can use superior dispel magic to end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object, to suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, to end ongoing spells (or at least their effects) within an area, or to counter another spellcaster’s spell. A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired. Any spells with a non-instantaneous duration - including epic spells - are potentially subject to superior dispel magic. Superior dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells; it is not effective against supernatural effects. Unlike dispel magic and greater dispel magic, there is no upper limit on your caster level check.

You choose to use superior dispel magic in one of three ways: a targeted dispel, an area dispel, or a counterspell:

Targeted Dispel
One object, creature, or spell is the target of the superior dispel magic spell. You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect.

If you target an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning), you make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature.

If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item’s caster level. If you succeed, all the item’s magical properties are suppressed for 24 hours, after which the item must make a Will saving throw at the spell's original DC: if it fails the save, the item is rendered nonmagical. Superior dispel magic closes an interdimensional interface (such as a bag of holding). A magic item’s physical properties are unchanged: a suppressed magic sword is still a sword (a masterwork sword, in fact). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

You automatically succeed on your dispel check against any spell that you cast yourself.


Area Dispel
When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell affects everything within a 40-foot radius.

For each creature within the area that is the subject of one or more spells, you make a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that check fails, you make dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell (which discharges the dispel magic spell so far as that target is concerned) or until you fail all your checks. The creature’s magic items are not affected.

For each object within the area that is the target of one or more spells, you make dispel checks as with creatures. Magic items are not affected by an area dispel.

For each ongoing area or effect spell whose point of origin is within the area of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to dispel the spell.

For each ongoing spell whose area overlaps that of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to end the effect, but only within the overlapping area.

If an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning) is in the area, you can make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured that object or creature (returning it whence it came) in addition to attempting to dispel spells targeting the creature or object.

You may choose to automatically succeed on dispel checks against any spell that you have cast.


Counterspell
When superior dispel magic is used in this way, the spell targets a spellcaster and is cast as a counterspell. Superior dispel magic automatically counters any spell of 9th-level or less; to counter an epic spell, the caster must make a successful dispel check.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Blasphemy is a tricky one. On reflection, I think I'm uncomfortable with a 25HD reference - it doen't feel right for a 7th-level spell (which should have some kind of 20HD cap). Right now, I'm thinking that it should be nerfed big time. I'm looking to circle of death and cloudkill for inspiration.


Blasphemy
Evocation [Evil, Sonic]

Level: Clr 7, Evil 7
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 40 ft.
Area: Non-evil creatures in a 40-ft.-radius burst centered on you
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None or Will partial; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

When you utter a blasphemy, nonevil creatures within range are subject to two effects. The first effect of the spell affects 1d4HD worth of creatures per caster level (maximum 20d4). Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first; among creatures with equal HD, those closest to the burst's point of origin are affected first. Evil creatures, and creatures whose Hit Dice exceed your caster level are unaffected by blasphemy.

• Creatures with 4 or fewer Hit Dice are instantly killed, with no saving throw.
• Creatures with more than 4 Hit Dice, but whose Hit Dice do not exceed half your caster level are entitled to a Saving throw: if they fail, they are dazed and paralyzed. If their Save is successful, they are dazed and weakened instead.
• Creatures whose Hit Dice are greater than half your caster level (but not greater than your caster level) are dazed and weakened if they fail their save. If their save is successful, they are merely dazed.

Dazed
The creature can take no actions for 1 round, though it defends itself normally.

Weakened
The creature’s Strength score decreases by 2d6 points for 2d4 rounds.

Paralyzed
The creature is paralyzed and helpless for 1d10 minutes.

Killed
Living creatures die. Undead creatures are destroyed.

The second effect of a blasphemy is to drive nonevil outsiders out of your home plane. If you are on your home plane when you cast this spell, any non-evil extraplanar creatures within the area whose HD do not exceed your caster level are instantly banished back to their home planes if they fail their saves. Creatures so banished cannot return for at least 24 hours. This effect takes place regardless of whether the creatures hear the blasphemy.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I am really torn on the question of destroying loot. On the one hand I wish that disintegrate destroyed the equipment of a slain opponent; it seems bizarre that the attack that utterly destroys a lich won't affect the lich's robe. And if the big bad has an item that the party covets, I want them to hesitate about doing anything that might destroy it.

Which is a very nice feature of your spell, btw: it renders the survival of captured items dubious. Although it makes me wonder: Does the item have to use its own saving throw, or can the cleric buff himself up and hold it the next day, the better to improve its chances?

One thing I kinda liked about mordenkainen's disjunction is that it simplified book-keeping, at least as far as buffs were concerned. If you knew what the stats of a character were pre-buff, then you could quickly determine what the effect of a disjunction would be. Greater dispel magic is potentially much more complex, since you actually have to recalculate the character's statistics based on what spell(s) failed the level check.

I rather like this line:

You may choose to automatically succeed on dispel checks against any spell that you have cast.

I always disliked the way that dispel checks automatically succeeded against your own spells. What if you didn't want to dispel your own spell? Even better would be "You may choose the result of the dispel check against any spell that you have cast." That would make a very nice 9th level dispel.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Re: Blasphemy

It would be easy enough to reduce all the hit dice references by 5 in my version of the spell. Then there would be an acknowledgement of the numeric cap for 20th level spells.

Besides suggesting an affinity for circle of death, what's your motive for putting a hit dice cap in the spell? The flavor mechanic seem kind of hazy: does someone else hearing a blasphemy make it less injurious to you? With a symbol or something I could see a blast of energy hitting one character full force, then flowing to another character appreciably diminished- such an image makes less sense with a blasphemy.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Perhaps the best fix for MDJ is a simple one - don't.

Epic spells containing the [reflect] seed can potentially turn this spell back on the caster - which would be devastating. A [ward] can defeat it. A ninth-level analogue of spell turning which affects area spells might be a possibility - Matt would then have a countermeasure to MDJ. Perhaps such a spell would require an opposed caster level check. Or even a Mordenkainen's defense against that spell he wished he hadn't developed after it destroyed his staff of the magi - I think that perhaps a spell designed specifically to counter MDJ might be in order. Much as freedom counters imprisonment.

Can a wish reverse MDJ? Maybe it should be able to.

That still leaves the problem of greater dispel magic, though.

What if superior dispel magic became superior targeted dispel instead? It would bring it closer to the [dispel] seed. We could beef it up a little.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Maybe leave disjunction unchanged, except that "each permanent magic item must make a successful Will save or be turned into a normal item" to

each permanent magic item must make a successful Will save or have its magical properties suppressed for 24 hours. At the end of this time the item must make a second Will saving throw using its base save against the spell's original DC: if it fails the save, the item is rendered nonmagical. A limited wish or stronger magic can ensure this second save is successful; a wish can restore an item lost in this way.​

This would blunt the "item destruction" feature a bit, but not much that players would use it routinely to neutralize opponents before killing them and taking their stuff. There would still be the risk of losing valuable items.

Can a wish reverse MDJ? Maybe it should be able to.

Wish can restore a person from the dead; I don't see why it can't do the same thing for magic items. Maybe we need a resurrect item spell.

But even if we leave disjunction unchanged (or only minimally modifed), I'm not sure if we need a superior dispel magic. I'm still thinking about whether it would be desirable to have a "new uses for old feats" section. Or at least a "new uses for Empower" section. Having Empower raise the cap on greater dispel magic would a neat trick. Even neater if we could somehow smuggle in the line "You may choose the result of the dispel check against any spell that you have cast."

I'm toying with the idea of allowing Empower to raise the cap on spells like planar binding and the power word spells, albeit at half-efficiency. Each +2 levels would give +25% higher hit dice (or hit points). If Matt had 8 AMC he could cast greater planar binding to fetch a 36 HD target. Or utter a 200 hp power word kill.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

Re: Undoing disjunction

I have created an un-disjoining spell for use in my own campaigns... It is not terribly creatively named, but functions just fine. There is a small XP cost to keep the spell from being used willy-nilly, but not so much that it would be cheaper to just recreate the magic items in question, for the most part.

[sblock]
Undisjunction
Transmutation
Level: Sor / Wiz 9
Components: V, S, XP
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: One or more objects, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart.
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
You restore the magical function to one normal item per your caster level that has been disjoined via a mage's disjunction or similar effect. You can undisjoin an item that has been disjoined for no longer than ten years per caster level. An item so restored performs in all ways as if it had never been disjoined. Charged items are restored with the same number of charges, scrolls are inscribed with the same spells that they were before their disjoining, enhanced armor and weapons possess the same enhancements they did previous to being disjoined, and so on.
XP Cost: 1000 XP.
[/sblock]

Introducing a spell like that takes away a great deal of the bite of losing all your magic items to a disjunction, but still doesn't trivialize that spell.

Later
silver

 

[Cheiromancer]

The "10 years per caster level" is reminiscent of resurrection. Although if the parallel were exact you would need diamond dust, wouldn't you? And the xp cost is paid by the caster, not the subject. Which is good, since most items don't earn experience points. Or perhaps it is like true resurrection (no xp cost) but the cost in diamond dust is paid with xp instead. Although 1000 xp is normally equivalent to 5000 gp (like raise dead), not 25,000 gp (like true resurrection).

I take it the items have to be whole? Not destroyed by hitting a black pudding or rust monster, not sundered, just demagicked in some way. In which case it's like a version of raise dead that doesn't work on people killed by hit point damage, but *only* by death magic. A mass version. Without diamond dust (or with a substitute of xp for gp). Which is kinda cool, although I don't know what level I would assign to such a spell.

Were you making any conscious analogies with life-restoring magic when you created this spell?

[edit] Using my [life] seed and assuming that equipment is 1/3 the ECL of a character, I've calculated that your spell could restore up to 1.4 million gp in equipment that had been demagicked. Although really I would either reduce the temporal range (if you want to counteract a disjunction that had just been cast on you) or increase the casting time (if you wanted to restore items that had been disjoined years before). Increasing the casting time to an hour (or reducing the temporal range to 3 months or so) would boost the effect to 2.2 million gp restored. That or you could restore items that had been destroyed by any means, but only 1.4 million gp worth.

A 7th level range touch spell could resurrect one item of up to 1 million gp value. With the same kind of modifications; shorter range or longer casting time = more value or can restore any destroyed item, not just one that was demagicked.

That's using my [life] seed, which prompted Sep to say "You're having one of your more eccentric moments, aren't you? " So it might not be entirely reliable.

(Actually, that's a funny line. I think I'm going to sig it.)

 

[Michael Silverbane]

I did think a bit about the raise dead, ressurection, and true ressurection spells when I created this spell, but I didn't really deconstruct them in the way that you do so much as go, "hmm... which one of these spells is this more like?"

Items do have to be whole. Broken items are not restored, and whether or not any other magic item whacking effect is a "similar effect" I've left completely up to the DM. So, individual DM's could decide differently on whether or not an item destroyed by a disenchanter (for example) could be restored via the use of this spell.

On the XP cost: I waffled around quite a lot on that, ranging anywhere from 500 XP to 5,000 (which would give the true ressurection figure). While I would've liked to have had that parity with true ressurection, I decided that, since it was an XP cost rather than a GP cost, that 5,000 was too expensive in a lot of cases (since the XP cost to create the magic item has already been paid once, anyway). I, personally, allow the Undo Misfortune effect of wish to restore items (note the plural, there) disjoined in the previous round, which makes this spell a little bit redundant.

I also considered tieing the XP cost into the caster level, or total caster level of the items so restored, but couldn't figure out a way to do so that I liked. This was at the same time that I was thinking of changing the material component cost of life restoring magic to an XP component cost, and making the cost of such magic similar to that of simulacrum. I gave up on that as too costly, but it might be something that I reconsider, based on the discussions going on re: your [life] seed. I know that the goal is to keep these rules as cross-compatible with the standard rules as possible, but I generally prefer an XP cost for a spell as a balancing factor (and limiting factor, assuming that the rule that you cannot spend enough XP to cause yourself to lose a level remains intact) much more than a GP cost.

Overall, I think this spell could use some tweaking around with to find an optimal balance for use in epic level situations, but I thought I'd throw it out there as something you guys could think about as regards mage's disjunction.

Later
silver