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5.5E Blast from the past

Dausuul

Legend
So, the point wasn't snark. The point was to literally question the use of personal experience as a measure.

And here, you whip out a 90% number out of nowhere, as if that number is meaningful, or indicative, or anything other than an unfounded assertion.
I don't disagree that the 90% number is a totally unfounded assertion. But unless you've done some market research you haven't mentioned, you can't produce a number with any more foundation. Neither can I. If all posts have to be backed up by hard data, hardly anyone on this forum can say anything at all.

So what's that leave? Personal experience. It's the only thing any of us can bring to the table in this discussion. I can't say what the market prefers or what the general experience is--but I can say what I prefer, based on my experiences. And that's what I did say (and made a point of explicitly limiting my statements to that).
 

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Greg K

Hero
explain why as I was too young to ever care about WoW?
Research shamans (in the general sense) in a good Antropology of Religion text or from reliable sites (and not just about "shamans" of indigenous North American cultures (which themselves are very diverse). Then look up a description of the WoW Shaman.
 

Research shamans (in the general sense) in a good Antropology of Religion text or from reliable sites (and not just about "shamans" of indigenous North American cultures (which themselves are very diverse). Then look up a description of the WoW Shaman.
I am coming down with depression can you not give me a research assignment, I get that it is offensive but beyond the mind-meltingly apparent what is wrong with it mechanically?
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
But unless you've done some market research you haven't mentioned, you can't produce a number with any more foundation.

I didn't claim I could.

There's a pretty big point to be made about how we make these unfounded assertions to support that our opinion is stronger, in the majority, or otherwise "right". I'm saying that's not a great idea. I'm saying that we should learn to live and work with the uncertainty, rather than try to assert it out of existence.

If your point is really that awesome, you shouldn't need a phony statistic to make it look good. It should be obviously good on its own merits, rather than need fictitious appeal to the masses to give it heft.

If you can't make it look that good, maybe your point isn't as universal as you want it to be.
 

Greg K

Hero
I am coming down with depression can you not give me a research assignment, I get that it is offensive but beyond the mind-meltingly apparent what is wrong with it mechanically?
Sorry about your depression. However, I have a migraine and am not going to take the time to explain it. Maybe, at another time. The best that I can do is say that Steve Kenson in Green Ronin's Shaman's Handbook for 3e (a variant of the cleric) and Michael Wolf's free version for 5e (a variant of the Warlock) on Dungeon Masters Guild are two different mechanical takes that do a pretty good job of a shaman for D&D (Edit: I do prefer the former as it covers different types of "shamans" and does a fairly good look at the topic)
 


Sorry about your depression. However, I have a migraine and am not going to take the time to explain it. Maybe, at another time. The best that I can do is say that Steve Kenson in Green Ronin's Shaman's Handbook for 3e (a variant of the cleric) and Michael Wolf's free version for 5e (a variant of the Warlock) on Dungeon Masters Guild are two different mechanical takes that do a pretty good job of a shaman for D&D (Edit: I do prefer the former as it covers different types of "shamans" and does a fairly good look at the topic)
thank you
 

Dausuul

Legend
I didn't claim I could.

There's a pretty big point to be made about how we make these unfounded assertions to support that our opinion is stronger, in the majority, or otherwise "right". I'm saying that's not a great idea. I'm saying that we should learn to live and work with the uncertainty, rather than try to assert it out of existence.
I agree that made-up statistics are silly (I am not the one who posted the 90% thing); but if you're going to complain about people basing their posts entirely on personal experience, and real statistics aren't available, then made-up statistics is the only thing left.

I guess I'll just go back to your earlier post, where you said "Because, personal experience is the limit to what happens?" and reply "What else you got?"
 

Greg K

Hero
Fourth edition has a Shaman base class. A primal healer who communes with spirits. It shouldn't be hard to bring it into 5e.
Where 4e failed, imo, was that a) Spirit Companion, iirc, focused on totems and ignored other types of spirit companions such as ancestral spirit and spirits of land (Including lakes, mountains, etc); b) the spirit companions were also to prescriptive for my tastes. For instance, in some cultures, Snake is a healing spirit, but we get only Bear. This is why I preferred Green Ronin's handling of a Shaman class- it essentially received Cleric Domains and gave examples of spirits that were appropriate for each Domain.
 

Where 4e failed, imo, was that a) Spirit Companion, iirc, focused on totems and ignored other types of spirit companions such as ancestral spirit and spirits of land (Including lakes, mountains, etc); b) the spirit companions were also to prescriptive for my tastes. For instance, in some cultures, Snake is a healing spirit, but we get only Bear. This is why I preferred Green Ronin's handling of a Shaman class- it essentially received Cleric Domains and gave examples of spirits that were appropriate for each Domain.
assuming it is a full class then it would not have that problem in 5e or at least as much.
 

Stalker0

Legend
I’ll add another vote for the old morale rules. They are elegant in their simplicity and help to standardize monster tactics (undead fight until death, kobolds will disengage from a fight quick).

it really highlights that most monsters are not suicidal
 

I agree that made-up statistics are silly (I am not the one who posted the 90% thing); but if you're going to complain about people basing their posts entirely on personal experience, and real statistics aren't available, then made-up statistics is the only thing left.

I guess I'll just go back to your earlier post, where you said "Because, personal experience is the limit to what happens?" and reply "What else you got?"
Maybe if you don't have any evidence other than anecdotal just don't present your opinion as fact?
 

Dausuul

Legend
Maybe if you don't have any evidence other than anecdotal just don't present your opinion as fact?
I didn't. In fact I repeatedly emphasized "in my experience" in my posts. Those were the posts that got the "So personal experience is the limit to what happens?" reply.
 



Where 4e failed, imo, was that a) Spirit Companion, iirc, focused on totems and ignored other types of spirit companions such as ancestral spirit and spirits of land (Including lakes, mountains, etc); b) the spirit companions were also to prescriptive for my tastes. For instance, in some cultures, Snake is a healing spirit, but we get only Bear. This is why I preferred Green Ronin's handling of a Shaman class- it essentially received Cleric Domains and gave examples of spirits that were appropriate for each Domain.
They actually did add an elementalist shaman subclass with the Dark Sun Campaign Setting (Aug 2010) and a World Speaker subclass in Primal Power (Oct 2009), when the Shaman class itself only launched in Mar 2009. So within a year and a half, they did add pretty much what you're asking for. And even the PHB2, where it launched, has powers specifically for calling on ancestor-spirits rather than animal or abstract ones.

Plus, 4e was super huge on reskinning, so like...why couldn't you say your Protector spirit was a snake, or a Set animal, or whatever else? I legit don't understand why it's necessary to have Snake be its own spirit with distinct mechanics. Just declare its appearance and you're good. It's literally no different than declaring your character's height or weight--theoretically it has mechanical merit, but practically it's purely up to you as contextual flavor.
 

Dragon Magazine....in print.

And especially SnarfQuest.

Wrapped in brown mailing paper, so I can just raise my eyebrows conspiratorially to my non-gaming friends and they'll think I have something illicit.
 


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