Blatant abuse of the five foot step?

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Forgive my ignorance - what is "Poster C Territory"

I refer you to: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=145820

 

[Raven Crowking]

Yes - you are correct I am instituting different laws of physics for different situations. After all the creation of a spontaneous ball of fire that you can toss is also sort of in defiance of the laws of physics.

Ah, those wacky Warner Brothers cartoons!


Of course, you are doing the Looney Tunes thing in reverse. For Wile E. Coyote, intentionally stepping off a cliff causes an immediate fall. Accidently stepping off a cliff, however, evokes a magical effect suspended the animated character in question until such a point as the character notices the effect, at which time he falls.

I do note that the creation of a fireball, for example, requires an extra-physical event (the use of "magic") to occur. Magic is, in fact, an alteration of the laws of physics invoked to meet the intent of the invoker. That seems to be what you are describing relating to falling in your campaign.

In your campaign, would you immediately fall if you were in a dead-magic area? Could a character step off the ledge, then make a full attack while hovering there (back to the question at the beginning of the thread)?


RC

 

[DM-Rocco]

I'd make it -8 (similar to taking a full ranged attack from a running mount without the Mounted Archery feat), but otherwise it sounds fine

On the other hand, if he threw the daggers, then stepped off, I wouldn't impose any penalty.

Put it this way... if someone threw three daggers, then used their five-foot step to move behind a statue for cover, not realising that there was a pit trap behind the statue... would you allow them to not trigger the pit trap? Or would they fall and take damage?

-Hyp.

I think you guys are missing the piont of Hypersmurf's comment. I only read the first part of the thread, I'm at work and can't read it all, but Hyper has made two very valid points and it appears that you guys only understood one of them.

The point you picked up on was that he should have thrown the daggers first. The part you all seemed to miss was the five foot stepo to move behind a statue for cover and then triggering a pit trap behind the statue.

If you take a five foot step behind a statue, and fall in a pit, you don't hover in space until your next turn. Time doesn't stand still as you wait for your next move action to catch up to you. The same is true if you make a full attack and then take a five foot step off of the roof or rafters.

Since the character stated that he would take full damage from the fall, he is not doing a jump action or a tumblew to reduce the effects so he falls prone taking normal damage. However, if he wanted to he could tumble as part of a move, and a five-foot step is part of a move even if it isn't a move action, as an instant action to reduce the fall by ten feet as per the SRD :

From the SRD, tumble: You can try to reduce damage from a fall as an instant reaction only once per fall.


He could also jump as part of a move to reduce the effects if he wanted too, even with a full attack action since it doesn't require an action. He is also only moving five-feet, not five feet forward and ten feet down, unless he was flying five feet forward and levitating ten feet down.

From the SRD jumping:
Jumping Down: If you intentionally jump from a height, you take less damage than you would if you just fell. The DC to jump down from a height is 15. You do not have to get a running start to jump down, so the DC is not doubled if you do not get a running start.
If you succeed on the check, you take falling damage as if you had dropped 10 fewer feet than you actually did.
Action: None. A Jump check is included in your movement, so it is part of a move action. If you run out of movement mid-jump (and they are refering to non-jumping down movements), your next action (either on this turn or, if necessary, on your next turn) must be a move action to complete the jump.

If this has already been covered, sorry, I didn't have enough time to read everything.

Hmm, but I guess I had enough time to give my two cents

 

[SBMC]

Ah, those wacky Warner Brothers cartoons!

Gotta love 'em

Of course, you are doing the Looney Tunes thing in reverse. For Wile E. Coyote, intentionally stepping off a cliff causes an immediate fall. Accidently stepping off a cliff, however, evokes a magical effect suspended the animated character in question until such a point as the character notices the effect, at which time he falls.

I see the comparison - though the difference is I don't think a 40th level raging barbarian could survive the falls Wiley has.

I do note that the creation of a fireball, for example, requires an extra-physical event (the use of "magic") to occur. Magic is, in fact, an alteration of the laws of physics invoked to meet the intent of the invoker. That seems to be what you are describing relating to falling in your campaign.

Exactly - but one has to deal with it somehow (if it comes up). "stepping off" is not defined in the RAW; only jumping down is. They are different.

In your campaign, would you immediately fall if you were in a dead-magic area? Could a character step off the ledge, then make a full attack while hovering there (back to the question at the beginning of the thread)?

In my campaign - NO! To answer your question directly: the only time he could step into midair and stop there would be if he had spent all of his actions already - and onl ahd a 5 foot move left.

It would be like this:

A. Had a full load of actions
If he "steps off" the cliff he falls immediately and is charged a move action. He only gets a tumble check when he its (if he hits that round) and thus is prone. In my book (the idea came from Patryn of Elvenshae's and Hypersmurf's posts I quoted in a previous post) if you don't take the jump action at the begininng (jumping down) ya don't get it at the end. That is RAW, in its finest form

If he "jumps down" he gets the RAW treatment.

B. Has used one action (move or standard)
If he "steps off" the cliff he falls immediately and is charged a move action. He only gets a tumble check when he its (if he hits that round) and thus is prone. In my book (the idea came from Patryn of Elvenshae's and Hypersmurf's posts I quoted in a previous post) if you don't take the jump action at the begininng (jumping down) ya don't get it at the end. That is RAW, in its finest form


If he "jumps down" he gets the RAW treatment.

C. Used up all actions except for the 5 foot adjustment:
If he had used up his actions (say by taking a full round action) I would let him make the 5 foot move anywhere he liked (terrain allowing - I don't consider air difficult terrain). However he is stuck there; even if it is in mid air.

If he is stuck in midair then he cannot be "aided" in anyway.

The reason for this is simple, as I had posted before, based on Mr. Tauntaun's postings, that if someone wants to intentionally move somewhere they get charged an action. One reason for this is simple - to steal a move action. Obviously if you "step off" a cliff as opposed to "jumping down" there is a very beneficial reason for it; the escape something or get somewhere for free (free action). If you let they PC fall this round (say 20') he gets that 20' for free OR he has indebited himself a move action.

Intentional being the key word here. The PC is TRYING to get off that ledge THIS ROUND while still using all his actions on other things.

If it were a 5 foot step into a pit trap; he would fall immediately - unintentional.

Alternative:
1. You simply don't allow a 5 foot step into midair (call it dificult terrain for example)

2. You simply don't allow a 5 foot step into midair as the final thing the character can do in the round (he can step anywhere else that is legal for a 5 foot move of course).

3. You allow him to step into midair, allow him to fall in that same round.

-But in this case, assuming "C" above, he gets to make that "move" THIS ROUND. That is the BIG difference. If I disallow that move as in #1 and #2 above here; he is stuck on the ledge itself having used all his actions. If I let him do it and make him hang in midair I am assuming that he is as vunerable to anything up on that ledge as he would be if he did not "step off" AND if what he wants to do is "steal" that move downward - he can't. Thus, in my idea, he would have been better off just staying on the ledge and jumping down the next turn.

My concern with the whole thing is allowing someone to get off that ledge and down to the ground in the current round, afte having expended all of their actions. If they step off and are willing to take the damage and be automaticly prone then that action must be more beneficial (to the character) than staying on the ledge itself - but yet is mechanicly unsound as it was the intent to make that fall happen (and thus "move" the distance downward) and the consequences to the character were irrelevant to the player.

I do concede, that I suppose, it would be easier to simply state that air is difficult terrain without a fly speed...

 

[Raven Crowking]

I see the comparison - though the difference is I don't think a 40th level raging barbarian could survive the falls Wiley has.

Heh heh.

Personally, I don't have problems with players using the rules in a way the designers hadn't intended. The designers probably didn't think about PCs falling on purpose, but that doesn't mean that there should be a hard stricture against it. I agree that anyone who falls on purpose must have an overwhelming desire to escape his current location (somehow the perceived advantage must outweigh the pervceived cost), but there is a cost, and this seems like something a person could do. Perhaps the PC then becomes a member of the campaign world's Darwin Award recepients.

I am not saying it should be allowed because it is "super-KEWL" or anything like that. I suggest rather that a character might, under duress (or through foolhardiness), simply believe that it is a possible option. Plus, allowing the occasional "freebie" (if you consider falling to be a move-equivelent action, which I do not [unless anvils do not fall in your world because they have no move speed]) because it is believeable seems preferable to me to changing the way the campaign world works simply to prevent the PC from falling on purpose.

The question really does hinge, I suppose, on whether or not you can take a 5-foot step over a ledge. Me, I have trouble with the whole idea of the PC somehow knowing that an area is difficult terrain before taking the 5-foot step (or otherwise checking). Can someone make a 5-foot step onto an illusory floor covering a pit? Why can't you make a 5-foot step in rough terrain (assuming that falling prone and/or providing an AoO as the whole thing proves more difficult than you expected are potential consequences of doing so)?


RC

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I am not saying it should be allowed because it is "super-KEWL" or anything like that. I suggest rather that a character might, under duress (or through foolhardiness), simply believe that it is a possible option.

Like, say ...

"Luke, I am your father."

"No - that's not true! That's impossible!"

"Search your feelings ..."

etc. Anyway, eventually we get to the "Aaaaaaah!" part.

 

[SBMC]

Like, say ...

"Luke, I am your father."

"No - that's not true! That's impossible!"

"Search your feelings ..."

etc. Anyway, eventually we get to the "Aaaaaaah!" part.

But you see - Luke technically jumped down - thus he burned a move action.

If he didn't I would never have allowed him a reflex save to grab that antenna under the city.

Same thing when he "jumped down" onto the Falcon...burned a move action...