Blatant abuse of the five foot step?

[Raven Crowking]

Primitive Screwhead,

I agree fully. Confusing voluntary movement with involuntary movement leads to such oddness as a cheetah falling faster than a turtle.


RC

 

[Infiniti2000]

Joe is temporarily blinded but has the blind-fight feat. He lashes out with a full attack against his foe and steps to the side..... Right over a ledge.

When you're blind, you cannot take a 5ft-step.

 

[anon]

Summary:

Disallow--player is getting something for nothing. Except for that falling damage.
Disallow--character isn't rated in that movement type (flying). Unless the character doesn't know that he's moving in a way that he can't (trap, illusion) in which case it's fine.
Disallow--falling damage in unrealistic in the d20 rules. I prefer... [insert REAL scary falling rules].
Allow--but make the character float. Unlike a trap, because then his friends could help him not fall.
Allow--it's superkewl.

 

[Shellman]

The crux of my arguement is that it's too much to do and constitutes a move. I base this on the ruling vs unnatural or rough terrain. You can not take a five foot step to go up an incline or rocky/uneven surface. Air is not a natural MOVEABLE surface, not for a human, therefore you can not five foot step it. Below, taken from the SRD, empasis mine:



I present falling is still movement, as the player is intending to move this distance.



As I stated above, I believe air to be difficult terrain, and therefore you can not 5 foot step into it.



While there is no listed speed for falling, the devs can't think of everything. While a weaker point of support, as I believe the ones I stated are much stronger and to the point, it is still valid.

In response to the posts regarding illusioned pit traps and the like, i find these arguements to be apples and oranges. Falling into a trap is an unintendend consequence of taking a free 5 foot step. You though you were moving onto solid ground, and the rest falls into the slipping-falling category. In this case, the character is intentionally using the five foot step to move into air and, thusly, fall. Based on how it is both written and intended, this is an abuse of the rule, IMO.
Thoughts? Comments?

I concurr 100% with you Tauntaun!

 

[Raven Crowking]

Summary:

Disallow--player is getting something for nothing. Except for that falling damage.
Disallow--character isn't rated in that movement type (flying). Unless the character doesn't know that he's moving in a way that he can't (trap, illusion) in which case it's fine.
Disallow--falling damage in unrealistic in the d20 rules. I prefer... [insert REAL scary falling rules].
Allow--but make the character float. Unlike a trap, because then his friends could help him not fall.
Allow--it's superkewl.

Um, you forgot "Allow--but treat falling as it is normally treated," which some have advocated. Your summary certainly shows the disadvantages of the other options.

RC

 

[SBMC]

Originally Posted by Patryn of Elvenshae
Er, no, he doesn't. Jumping down requires a Jump check and can reduce the damage you take from the distance fallen.

Falling off a cliff means you don't get to make a Jump check and suffer full damage from the distance fallen.

In either case, you can get a Tumble check to reduce the damage taken.

---------------------------------------

Originally Posted by SBMC
"Think about it - he is intentionally stepping off the cliff;"

Yep.


Originally Posted by SBMC
"that is not the same as "jumping down" which requires a move action (you can read this entire 4 page thread to see the arguments of that made)."

Absolutely.

Originally Posted by SBMC
"The PC is trying to avoid the move action by "stepping off" the ledge."

What move action?

Originally Posted by SBMC
"Then, you are saying he hits the ground (and gets the same tumble check as anyone who did "Jump Down" per the RAW)"


No. I'm saying he gets the same Tumble check - against DC 15 - to reduce falling damage that anyone who falls gets - including people who trigger pit traps, who are bull-rushed off of ledges, whose featherfall spells expire, and those who jump down from a height.

Anyone who is falling can make a Tumble check to reduce the distance fallen - for purposes of damage - by 10', once per jump, as a "free reaction."

It doesn't matter what causes you to fall, just that you do, in fact, fall.

What he doesn't get is the Jump check - against DC 15 - to reduce the damage calculation by another 10', because that requires a move action.

EDIT:

A series of examples, freshly edited :

Bob the Warrior (+6 Jump, N/A Tumble) jumps down off of a 20' cliff. It costs him a move action. He fails his Jump check, takes 1d6 points of normal damage, takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage, and falls prone.

Bob the Warrior (+6 Jump, N/A Tumble) jumps down off of a 20' cliff. It costs him a move action. He makes his Jump check, treats the fall as 10' shorter, and takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage.

Bob the Warrior (+6 Jump, N/A Tumble) is bull-rushed off off of a 20' cliff. He can do nothing to ameliorate his fall, takes 2d6 points of damage, and falls prone.

Bob the Warrior (+6 Jump, N/A Tumble) willingly falls off of a 20' cliff. He can do nothing to ameliorate his fall, takes 2d6 points of damage, and falls prone.

Phil the Rogue (+6 Jump, +6 Tumble) jumps down off of a 20' cliff. It costs him a move action. He fails his Jump check and his Tumble check, takes 1d6 points of normal damage, takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage, and falls prone.

Phil the Rogue (+6 Jump, +6 Tumble) jumps down off of a 20' cliff. It costs him a move action. He makes his Jump check but fails his Tumble check, treats the fall as 10' shorter, and takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage.

Phil the Rogue (+6 Jump, +6 Tumble) jumps down off of a 20' cliff. It costs him a move action. He fails his Jump check but makes his Tumble check, treats the fall as 10' shorter, takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage, and falls prone.

Phil the Rogue (+6 Jump, +6 Tumble) jumps down off of a 20' cliff. It costs him a move action. He makes his Jump check and his Tumble check, treats the fall as 10' shorter, and takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. (EDIT: As noted below, Jump and Tumble do not synergize in the way I thought they did.)

Phil the Rogue (+6 Jump, +6 Tumble) is bull-rushed off off of a 20' cliff. He can attempt a Tumble check to ameliorate his fall. If he fails, he takes 2d6 points of damage, and falls prone. If he succeeds, he takes 1d6 points of damage, and falls prone.

Phil the Rogue (+6 Jump, +6 Tumble) willingly falls off of a 20' cliff. He can attempt a Tumble check to ameliorate his fall. If he fails, he takes 2d6 points of damage, and falls prone. If he succeeds, he takes 1d6 points of damage, and falls prone.

---------------------------------------

Far as I can see, nobody gets to reduce the distance by another ten feet.

If a character deliberately jumps instead of merely slipping or falling, the damage is the same but the first 1d6 is nonlethal damage. A DC 15 Jump check or DC 15 Tumble check allows the character to avoid any damage from the first 10 feet fallen and converts any damage from the second 10 feet to nonlethal damage. Thus, a character who slips from a ledge 30 feet up takes 3d6 damage. If the same character deliberately jumped, he takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage and 2d6 points of lethal damage. And if the character leaps down with a successful Jump or Tumble check, he takes only 1d6 points of nonlethal damage and 1d6 points of lethal damage from the plunge.

If you make a Jump check, you avoid damage from the first ten feet fallen, and convert damage from the second ten feet fallen to nonlethal damage.

If you make a Tumble check, you avoid damage from the first ten feet fallen, and convert damage from the second ten feet fallen to nonlethal damage.

If you make a Jump check and a Tumble check, you avoid damage from the first ten feet fallen (twice!), and convert damage from the second ten feet fallen to nonlethal damage (twice!). You do not avoid damage from the second ten feet fallen, nor do you convert to nonlethal the damage from the third or fourth ten feet fallen.

-Hyp.

I so indeed see this now (why not earlier I have no idea); per the RAW, if you take it all together, essentially says that Jumping Down (move action) from a ledge allows you to make a DC15 Jump check when you land. By "Stepping off" a ledge you get no chance to stay upright. In both cases you get a tumble check to see if you can avoid some damage.

Stepping off of something is still undefined directly in the RAW. As such, with your argument that simply means, per the RAW (what is there that is), that you don't get the jump check to land upright since you did not use the jump action ---> stepping off into air is not disallowed - so it is allowed as a free 5 foot move.

That all makes sense to me; and is valid and correct per what is in the RAW and the idea that if the RAW do not say you can't, you can.

But think about this; the character just got to travel that distance to the ground and he consequence was falling prone and taking an extra d6 of damage. In your examples; he gets a "free" 20 foot move downward seeing as stepping off that cliff and to the ground costs no action. D6 means more at 1st level; but what about 10th or 15th?

Now in some cases this is moot, irrelevant or not of worth to note. However in others it is; such as in the example given by the starter of the thread:

If you made a full attack (at someone that is on he ground at the level of your ledge or on the ground below) and also wanted to get to the ground in the same round you could do it. Instead of having to wait till the next round to exit the ledge and fall.

If I wanted to get to the ground and make a full attack; I just step off and land prone and attack from the prone. There is also a feat out there that lets me regain my feet for free if I hit an opponent or something like that.

In the same token I could just a easily make a run action and end it in midair off the edge of the cliff and get an extra 20 feet out of it. (very handy when being chased or avoiding explosions and the like).

I had my own house rules on this (noted earlier in this thread) however now they are nixed. I had then because at least 4 or 5 times I had seen this happen - and most of the ime the PC wanted to gain movement downward and take a standard and move action as well - which is stealing an action in my book..

Thus; I see you point with the RAW and with what is there it is indeed a correct conclusion IMO. However to me, IMO; allowing someone to intentionally fall at no cost of an action (only d6's and being prone which may or may not matter to the PC) is unbalanced.

Thus we come to Mr. Tauntaun

The crux of my arguement is that it's too much to do and constitutes a move. I base this on the ruling vs unnatural or rough terrain. You can not take a five foot step to go up an incline or rocky/uneven surface. Air is not a natural MOVEABLE surface, not for a human, therefore you can not five foot step it. Below, taken from the SRD, empasis mine:

I present falling is still movement, as the player is intending to move this distance.

As I stated above, I believe air to be difficult terrain, and therefore you can not 5 foot step into it.

While there is no listed speed for falling, the devs can't think of everything. While a weaker point of support, as I believe the ones I stated are much stronger and to the point, it is still valid.

In response to the posts regarding illusioned pit traps and the like, i find these arguements to be apples and oranges. Falling into a trap is an unintendend consequence of taking a free 5 foot step. You though you were moving onto solid ground, and the rest falls into the slipping-falling category. In this case, the character is intentionally using the five foot step to move into air and, thusly, fall. Based on how it is both written and intended, this is an abuse of the rule, IMO.
Thoughts? Comments? .

The area of focus being

I present falling is still movement, as the player is intending to move this distance.

I agree with him here 110% - the player is intentionally moving; trying to use the words of the law to undermine the spirit of the law (perhaps not intentionally; just trying to do something "cool" but nonetheless..)

Another point of focus for me being

I believe air to be difficult terrain, and therefore you can not 5 foot step into it

I am not sure I agree with this; however it is still a very valid argument.

In both cases what this does is force the move action upon the character - which is something I think a lot of folks here think is correct; it's just how to enforce that move action. In earlier posts I used the word "intentional" along with the words "with care" and "careless" regarding jumping down or stepping off of a ledge respectively - however now I am switching to Mr. Tauntaun's language of "intentional" and "unintentional".

My summary: If the character intentionally tries to move in any way; he gets smacked with a move action.

If he steps off then Patryn of Elvenshae's and Hypersmurf's ideas regarding loosing the jump save will apply as well.

So (and this ends up being part of my former house rules) if the character uses all his actions (or takes a full round action) and then makes the 5 foot step into midair; he is indeed stuck there until the next round, in midair. On his next turn he falls - since he did not "jump down" on his last turn he looses the chance for a jump save but still get the tumble save AND still gets charged a move action for intentionally trying to move downward. Leaving him with a single action, and prone, on the ground.

 

[FEADIN]

For me:
He throws the three daggers and make a 5' step in the air, he begins falling (nothing says "air" is a difficult terrain).
Next round (as in the jump skill) he continues his fall and hit the ground crossing two 5' cases where the ennemie has reach if he falls near him (3 dimensions, when falling you cross the case above the one you are landing, see aerial combat) so he provoques an AoO, he can make a jump check or a tumble check (if he has ranks) because he was "aware" of the fall and it's a movement in the new round.

I'm happy, someone agree with me(nearly)

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Infiniti2000... cool.. learned two things in this thread .. Thanks!

Of course, my players may resent you

{for those of you following at home, a 5' step is not allowed per RAW when in difficult terrain or in darkness. As such a blinded character cannot take this option.. PHB, Chap 8, description of the 'Take 5' step'...}

SMBC.. so a character who 5' steps onto a concealed trap door gets the same opportunity to 'hang' for the round and gives his buddies a chance to save him?
I think it odd to institute different laws of physics based on the intent of the character.

Oh.. and we are definatly into Poster C territory here

 

[Infiniti2000]

Infiniti2000... cool.. learned two things in this thread .. Thanks!

Of course, my players may resent you

It's one that is often overlooked IME and contributes to the false (IMO) conclusion that the 5ft-step can be 'abused'. Another error I see often is allowing someone who is flying (via fly) or levitating to take a "5ft-step" up. If you have less than perfect maneuverability, you cannot take a 5ft-step up.

 

[SBMC]

SMBC.. so a character who 5' steps onto a concealed trap door gets the same opportunity to 'hang' for the round and gives his buddies a chance to save him?
I think it odd to institute different laws of physics based on the intent of the character.

Yes - you are correct I am instituting different laws of physics for different situations. After all the creation of a spontaneous ball of fire that you can toss is also sort of in defiance of the laws of physics.

1. If you "jump down" - you bun a move action and do it in the same round
2. If you fall "unintentionally" (trap for example) - you fall immediately and all the rules apply per RAW
3. If you intentionally "step off" a cliff and have no actions left then "NO" you don't fall.
- However I see your point (as applied here not to the two above); so I would say then that either "saving" him would not be allowed (even though the square is 5 feet away he is out of reach) or say that he flee 5 feet to below the edge of the cliff (out of reach). Something that essentially ensures he free falls and smacks the ground the following round.

Oh.. and we are definatly into Poster C territory here

Forgive my ignorance - what is "Poster C Territory"