Blatant abuse of the five foot step?

[Hypersmurf]

What he doesn't get is the Jump check - against DC 15 - to reduce the damage calculation by another 10', because that requires a move action.

Far as I can see, nobody gets to reduce the distance by another ten feet.

If a character deliberately jumps instead of merely slipping or falling, the damage is the same but the first 1d6 is nonlethal damage. A DC 15 Jump check or DC 15 Tumble check allows the character to avoid any damage from the first 10 feet fallen and converts any damage from the second 10 feet to nonlethal damage. Thus, a character who slips from a ledge 30 feet up takes 3d6 damage. If the same character deliberately jumped, he takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage and 2d6 points of lethal damage. And if the character leaps down with a successful Jump or Tumble check, he takes only 1d6 points of nonlethal damage and 1d6 points of lethal damage from the plunge.

If you make a Jump check, you avoid damage from the first ten feet fallen, and convert damage from the second ten feet fallen to nonlethal damage.

If you make a Tumble check, you avoid damage from the first ten feet fallen, and convert damage from the second ten feet fallen to nonlethal damage.

If you make a Jump check and a Tumble check, you avoid damage from the first ten feet fallen (twice!), and convert damage from the second ten feet fallen to nonlethal damage (twice!). You do not avoid damage from the second ten feet fallen, nor do you convert to nonlethal the damage from the third or fourth ten feet fallen.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I don't see anything against that. You can take a move action to go anywhere you want. Whether or not you succeed is another matter. If the character want to take a move action straight up without a fly speed and Good+ maneuverability or Hover, I'd let him waste the action and rule that it fails. I mean, you can't walk through a wall, but nothing keeps you from trying.

So does he waste the move action and fail to move onto the illusory floor?

Or does he move onto the illusory floor (despite not having a Fly speed) and fall?

-Hyp.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Far as I can see, nobody gets to reduce the distance by another ten feet.

Where's that from, Hyp?

Because it's not in the skill descriptions in the SRD, which do not even mention conversion to nonlethal damage.

EDIT:

Ah, I see. It's in the "Wilderness and Environment Section." If I'm not mistaken, that comes from the DMG, right?

Ergo, because skills are detailed in the PHB, the PHB is the primary source, and trumps those rules in the DMG.

 

[Infiniti2000]

So does he waste the move action and fail to move onto the illusory floor?

Or does he move onto the illusory floor (despite not having a Fly speed) and fall?

-Hyp.

It's undefined and left to DM fiat.

Personally, I'd say he moves and falls.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Where's that from, Hyp?

Because it's not in the skill descriptions in the SRD, which do not even mention conversion to nonlethal damage.

From the Falling section in the SRD (Wilderness, Weather, and Environment chapter).

(I recently tried to Jump and Tumble to reduce a fall twice, in a PbP, having read the skill descriptions. The DM pointed that passage out to me, and I had to agree - they don't stack )

-Hyp.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Sorry - cross-edited. See above.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Ah, I see. It's in the "Wilderness and Environment Section." If I'm not mistaken, that comes from the DMG, right?

Ergo, because skills are detailed in the PHB, the PHB is the primary source, and trumps those rules in the DMG.

The use of skills is detailed in the PHB; the effects of falling are detailed in the DMG. What the primary source for the effects of skill on falling is... is debatable.

But primary source aside and ignoring the DMG passage, both skills state that you treat a fall as ten feet shorter than the actual distance. The actual distance is 20 feet; Jump allows you to treat it as 10 feet, and Tumble allows you to treat it as 10 feet. Both reference the actual distance, so there is no synergy.

-Hyp.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Er, no, he doesn't. Jumping down requires a Jump check and can reduce the damage you take from the distance fallen.

Falling off a cliff means you don't get to make a Jump check and suffer full damage from the distance fallen.

In either case, you can get a Tumble check to reduce the damage taken.

Correct.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

But primary source aside and ignoring the DMG passage, both skills state that you treat a fall as ten feet shorter than the actual distance. The actual distance is 20 feet; Jump allows you to treat it as 10 feet, and Tumble allows you to treat it as 10 feet. Both reference the actual distance, so there is no synergy.

Good point, and one I'd never noticed before.

If you succeed on the check, you take falling damage as if you had dropped 10 fewer feet than you actually did.

Treat a fall as if it were 10 feet shorter than it really is when determining damage.

I'll go edit my above, then (even though I'll keep that house rule going in any campaign I run!).

After all, I'd hate to annoy Andargor!

As an aside, that makes Jumping and Tumbling along with Slow Fall a ... non-starter ... for lack of a better term.

Slow Fall (Ex): At 4th level or higher, a monk within arm’s reach of a wall can use it to slow her descent. When first using this ability, she takes damage as if the fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is. The monk’s ability to slow her fall (that is, to reduce the effective distance of the fall when next to a wall) improves with her monk level until at 20th level she can use a nearby wall to slow her descent and fall any distance without harm.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

There are alot of red herrings running about this thread

Consider:

Joe is temporarily blinded but has the blind-fight feat. He lashes out with a full attack against his foe and steps to the side..... Right over a ledge.

Or

Joe is fighting in a hall, he lashes out with a full attack against his foe and steps back...onto a trap door covering a 20' pit.

Or

Joe has fought the buggers off, his back to a ledge. The mean BBG bullrushes him... over the ledge.

.......

Why should I rule any different when a PC chooses to step to the side over a ledge?

To me its quite simple. The player takes an action, then pays the consequences for that action.
The FAQ appears to actually be helpful in this matter

I think its easier to think of it as voluntary and non-voluntary movement. Voluntary movement restrictions are based on voluntary movement and ignores any non-voluntary movement.

Other silly considerations..
Illusionary pit over a solid floor. If you rule that you cannot 5' step into the air off a ledge, can you 5' step out 'into the air' of an illusionary pit?


So, for me the RAW reads as: let him step. He falls and may make a Tumble check in an attempt to reduce the damage from his involuntary movement.