Blatant abuse of the five foot step?

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

("After my full attack, I use my 5-foot step to get out of my opponent's weapon range....um, I'll turn that into a tumble next round, so no consequences, okay?").

Um, bad example.

The 5' step doesn't provoke, anyway.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Um, bad example.

The 5' step doesn't provoke, anyway.

Bad example? Not at all.

The 5-foot step doesn't provoke an AoO, but standing next to the ogre allows it to use a full attack action on its initiative. Normally, taking a 5-foot-step wouldn't prevent this either, because the ogre would simply do the same prior to attacking. Sorry if I wasn't clear about what the danger of standing next to the ogre you just attacked was...I thought that this was relatively obvious.

If I can use full attack and then step off a ledge without treating it as a fall, by allowing a jump or tumble check next round, then I have just gotten the benefit of a move action along with a full attack....I get out of my opponent's melee range.


RC

 

[FEADIN]

You're right but in my example beyond "the 5'step and you begin falling" you're still in the range of the ogre, you're just "over the edge".
Simultaneity is difficult to explain with a round by round action.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Bad example? Not at all.

Yeah, I'm still not getting it.

What you're saying is that you'll take a 5' step - and then actually move 20 feet or so?

 

[Raven Crowking]

The D&D rules assume that you have actions for things under your control. For example, you can be bullrushed in a given round in addition to any movement you might have. You can also be bullrushed over an edge, causing you to fall. Should I mention various spell effects that others might use on you? Uncontrolled movement in addition to controlled movement is nothing new to the game.

Falling is uncontrolled movement. If it were controlled, it would be jumping (or tumbling).

Also, falling speed is independent of movement speed. An immobile creature (SPd 0 feet) pushed over a ledge will still fall, thus exceding its movement allotment.

So, while Wile E. Coyote might be able to stand on air to take a blow, the second that most of us are unsupported, we begin to feel the effects of gravity.

What I am saying is, let him take the 5 foot step. Then let him take the normal consequences of falling. It's not only the simplest solution, but its probably the best. Of course, as always, YMMV.


RC

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So, the FAQ seems to include a new entry which might be somewhat applicable here.

Q: If, during my move, my character falls down a shaft (or cliff, or whatever), can he continue to move with the same move action when he hits the bottom (assuming he survives)? What if he uses the catfall power (Expanded Psionics Handbook, page 82)? What about if he has a feather fall effect?

A: The simple answer is no—falling takes at least some time, and in most cases ends up with the character no longer standing up. Together, these issues result in the character’s move action “ending” with the fall.

A DM willing to take on some judgment calls, however, can be a little open-minded on the issue. Assuming the character lands on his feet, and the fall was short enough to not take an appreciable amount of time (say, no more than a second or so), it might well seem reasonable to allow him to continue moving as part of the same action. The rest of this answer will tackle these two requirements in reverse order.

As the Sage has pointed out in the past (see DRAGON #327), falling happens very quickly. In a single second, the typical character falls 16 feet; after 2 seconds, you’ve fallen 64 feet. It’s probably okay to let a character who falls up to 20 feet or so to continue moving as part of the same action (assuming he remains standing at the end of the drop). Feather fall says that the character falls 60 feet per round, or 10 feet per second. The Sage suggests that any feather fallaided drop of more than 10 feet is too slow to allow continued movement with the same action. (Catfall doesn’t reduce falling speed, so it wouldn’t have the same restriction.)

Obviously, if the character has to stand up after the fall, his movement has ended and he must take a new move action to move again. This is true even if he can stand up as a free action (since you can’t typically take free actions in the middle of a move). In general, characters don’t land on their feet after falling; however, the Sage could see some reasonable exceptions:

• A character who jumps down intentionally and takes no damage because of a successful Jump check (see the Jump skill)
• A character who jumps or falls down and takes no damage because of a successful Tumble check (see the Tumble skill)
• A character with the slow fall ability (such as a monk) who takes no damage from a fall because of this ability
• A character under the effect of feather fall or similar effect that negates falling damage.
• A character who uses the catfall power. This one is clear, as the power specifically states that the character lands on his feet no matter how far he falls.

Basically, if the character has some ability that negates the damage from the fall, it’s probably okay to say that she also lands on her feet; assuming the fall was brief enough, she should have the option to keep moving as part of the same action that took her off the edge.

 

[Nail]

...I..unless you want to say that someone cannot willingly fall....

See, that's the "red herring". This arguement hinges on the 5-ft step. The fallling is irrelevant.

Can you take a 5-ft step -- which is not simply a "step", but a series of in-combat "adjustments" -- can you take that action into an area into which you have no (or drasticly reduced) movement rate?

I'd say "no". The RAW says "no", IMO.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Can you take a 5-ft step -- which is not simply a "step", but a series of in-combat "adjustments" -- can you take that action into an area into which you have no (or drasticly reduced) movement rate?

I'd say "no". The RAW says "no", IMO.

Would you allow a PC to take a 5-foot step into an area with entangle cast on it? Would you allow a PC to accidently take a 5-foot step that lands her in a pit? Me, I'm always happy to allow that sort of thing.

Personally, if you're standing next to a ledge, I don't think you necessarily have to be able to move a full 5 feet to start falling. Often, the first or second of that series of in-combat adjustments is enough to begin the "uncontrolled falling" portion of the turn.


RC

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

By the way, regardless of whether or not you allow the 5' step off the ledge, you should allow the DC 15 Tumble check to reduce falling damage:

Treat a fall as if it were 10 feet shorter than it really is when determining damage.

..

You can try to reduce damage from a fall as an instant reaction only once per fall.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Fair enough.


RC