Blink automatically allows sneak attacks, what?

[RigaMortus]

... unless he fails his 20% miss chance. But wait! He "waited to strike" until he was on the Material Plane! So, by your rationale, the rogue could forever avoid the 20% miss chance by declaring that he was "waiting to strike". The rogue can't "wait to strike". That's obvious. He takes his shot when he can - no matter what plane he happens to be on.

I'm sorry, but that is just stupid. If I am on the ethereal plane, and I KNOW that I won't be able to damage my opponent from it, why in the hell would I even attempt it? I wouldn't... I would wait until I Blink back to the Material Plane, line up my shot as quick as possible (preferably towards the jugular or some other vital area), then swing, and hope my swing lands before I Blink back to the Ethereal Plane.

You seem to be breaking Blink down into semi-rounds, where you can "time" your attack. You don't Blink once every second, so you can't "ready" your strike as you suggest. The best you can do, as I described above, is line up your attack to the opponent's vitals and swing as quick as possible hoping you strike quick enough to not Blink back. That is where the 20% miss chance comes in... And it should be assumed you are always doing this. As it is assumed you are always bobbing and weaving during combat. Not just standing there frozen in time until the next 6 seconds come up...

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

But the point is that people sometimes try to wrap their minds about "how the rules work with regard to common sense" and you cannot do that. There are a lot of nonsensical rules that work merely within their own framework. For example, not having a facing and hence, you cannot be attacked from behind. Or, having a shield bonus against all attacks, regardless of their direction. Or threatening all of the squares 10 feet away with a Longspear simultaneously (with a real spear, you would threaten the area where you are thrusting the spear, not 10 feet behind you). These are all nonsensical (i.e. against common sense) rules, but they work as long as you suspend your disbelief. You have to do the same here.

Actually, in 98% of the situations, I can use real life rationale to make everything make sense in common sense.

The facing rules make perfect common sense if you assume that everyone is continually spinning and twirling around, or that they can as soon as they need to. This I can easilly rationalize by watching cheesy TV shows like Sinbad, Hercules, Xena, etc. The heroes always take on 6 or 7 people at once, none of which ever hit them in the back because they always twirl around to face them just as they go to attack (mainly because of choreographed fight sequences, but assume PCs are so good they can do that as well). The spear thing even make sense when you start throwing in the type of non-realistic fighting done in these types of shows. Someone is running up behind you? Drop to your knees and thrust the spear over your shoulder in one movement or swing around really quickly and use the side of the spear as a club.

As for blink, yes, I see the reason you get it is that with a person popping in and out of visibility, you have no idea where they will be at any given second or even where the next attack will come from. They just have to take one step and start swinging their sword while invisible and your carefully considered defense falls apart. I can see an arguement for being able to sneak attack when when you can see the blinking person, you attempt to parry and their sword goes right through yours. You slice at them hoping to throw them off guard and your sword goes through them throwing you off guard.

Now, if you can effect them AND see them, I think I wouldn't allow them to sneak attack any longer, invoking the infamous quote from Sean K Reynolds, "The rules were meant to be interpreted through common sense". I just can manage to work magic into my definition of common sense. If mirror image makes all the images appear exactly the same all the time, there would be no way to tell them apart. I do, however allow people to pick out the correct one if the correct image is being grappled. Mirror image does not create images of the person attempting to grapple the caster.

 

[rushlight]

I'm sorry, but that is just stupid. If I am on the ethereal plane, and I KNOW that I won't be able to damage my opponent from it, why in the hell would I even attempt it? I wouldn't... I would wait until I Blink back to the Material Plane,

That's where you make your mistake.

You don't know when you'll be where. If you did know, then there wouldn't BE a miss chance. You'd know.

Since you don't know, there's a random variable - 20% to be exact.

You just TOTALLY ignored what I wrote.

I didn't ignore it. I addressed it - pointing out the flaw in your logic. See above for further information.

one of the problems that people have with d20 is the descriptions really mean nothing in the game mechanics. So, even though the sneak attack says you need to see to do, it is the statement about the concealment that defines when in game mechanics that a sneak attack cannot happen. And in the etheral plane while it has neat visuals, they mean nothing in game mechanics becasue there is no neagive or penalty associated with them. d20 spells these things out.

Descripions? The rules are the rules. If it says you need to see, then you need to see. Plain and clear. You don't need to overcomplicate things for people who can't use some common sense. And another thing: Nowhere in the sneak attack rules does it say: "Concealment is the only thing that prevents sneak attack. Other than that, you can sneak attack anytime." It says you need to see clearly - then points out one example of when you would be unable to see clearly - and leaves the adjucation of when "seeing clearly" is possible up to the DM. They hoped you'd take some initative and think about it for yourself.

And if your DM decides that your vision is "muted", "indistinct" and has "blurry colors" and "fuzzy edges" - yet you can still see clearly - then you've got a DM who either likes you or doesn't want to be bothered to make a correct decison.

It's impossible to quantify every single effect possible while playing the game, and cross-reference every action with every spell so that all permutations are accounted for. It's enough to say "You need to see clearly" - and if something makes your vision all screwy, then any reasonable person (not trying to get unlimited sneak attacks) can obviously connect the dots.

 

[KarinsDad]

I didn't ignore it. I addressed it - pointing out the flaw in your logic. See above for further information.

You still did not address my point and again ignored it.

The rules are the rules. If it says you need to see, then you need to see. Plain and clear.

Yes, the rules are the rules.

The rules state that you can see from the Ethereal Plane into the Material Plane. Nowhere in the rules does this state that anyone on the Material Plane beng looked at by someone from the Ethereral Plane will have concealment against him.

"While it is possible to see into the Material Plane from the Ethereal Plane, the Ethereal Plane is usually invisible to those on the Material Plane."

"The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot."

Saying that you cannot see clearly from the Ethereal Plane into the Material Plane is something you made up. That's called a house rule.

Quote a rule to support your flawed logic.

 

[rushlight]

You still did not address my point and again ignored it.

I can post it for you, but I can't read it for you too. You've got to do some things yourself.

The rules state that you can see from the Ethereal Plane into the Material Plane. Nowhere in the rules does this state that anyone on the Material Plane beng looked at by someone from the Ethereral Plane will have concealment against him.

Nor does it state that concealment is the only thing that prevents sneak attacks. Geez, RTFM. Any time you cannot see your target clearly, you cannot sneak attack. I've given you the SRD where it says that. Try reading your PHB. Specifically, page 50, first column, last line - starting at the ninth word. It's there in black and white. English too, if that helps.

Oh, and if you could find where it specifcally states that ONLY concealment prevents sneak attacks, that would be lovely. But I won't accept your handwritten notes in the margin of your PHB.

This can't get much simpler. You have to see - and Blink doesn't allow the kind of vision you need. Duh.

Saying that you cannot see clearly from the Ethereal Plane into the Material Plane is something you made up. That's called a house rule.

Boy, I must have more pull with WOTC staff than I thought. It sure does kick ass to have my "house rules" printed in the DMG on page 151, second column, second paragraph under the Ethereal Plane heading. I wonder what other house rules I've come up with that are now in the core rules?

Quote a rule to support your flawed logic.

I did - in every post before this one. Both in page numbers and SRD references. You just don't want to see because you don't want an end to come to the eternal-sneak-attack-munchkin-maneuver.

Anyway, we're going in circles here. I really can't make it much simpler for you. You can either read the books or not.

I do have one other question for you, though. Are you running a game, or do you play a rogue?

 

[KarinsDad]

I do have one other question for you, though. Are you running a game, or do you play a rogue?

I have a question for you as well.

If you were a Blinking character, would a successful attack of yours occur while you are on the Ethereal Plane or on the Material Plane, and when you successfully attack, can you clearly see your opponent?

Your entire POV centers around the basic premise that the Rogue is not seeing clearly when on the prime Material Plane (the only time his attack succeeds) because an instant earlier, he could not clearly see his target from the Ethereal Plane. This is illogical. If his attack succeeds, he MUST be on the material plane and he MUST be able to clearly see his target.

Without this premise, your entire argument fails apart like a house of cards.

So, post rules that support the notion that because he cannot see clearly on the Ethereal Plane, he also cannot see clearly on the Material Plane.

 

[ARandomGod]

Where have you got this idea?

First of all, the descriptive text of Blink spell does not include the word "manifest" or "manifestation". Thus, this is not a manifestation.

Second. "Manifestation" is a ghost's ability which allow it to partly enter the material plane. The ghost is still partly in the Ethereal plane. They do exist on the material plane and the ethereal plane simultaneousely. And they are incorporeal in the material plane. That is completely different ability from blinking. When blinking, you blink back and forth betwween the matereal plane and the ethereal plane. At one moment, you are on the matereal plane. At another moment, you are on the ethereal plane.

Third. Ghost touch weapon can be picked up and moved by a manifesting ghost because it is an incorporeal creature in material plane (they do exist on two planes simultaneousely). The description of the weapon ability never say that it can damage or picked up by something in the ethereal plane and not in the material plane.

So, a ghost touch weapon cannot harm someone while that one is (only) in the ethereal plane..

I got the idea from ghosts.
And from Incorporeal and Etherial.
Also from:

Blink is a complicated spell, and does have some rules errors in it (it refers to you being incorporeal when you are not), but this is not one of them.

Some of the wording of the spell. A rules error? Sure. One way OR the other.

Yes, I do realize that it's generally regarded as a house rule. I'm not saying that the description I just gave of blinking is not a house ruled type of description. In fact, I was saying just the opposite...that I had a house rule on the nature of blinking, on the nature of hte interactions between the corporeal, the incorporeal, and the etherial, and not on the nature of ghost touch. That post was a reply, and had some but not all of the information from the conversational thread.

 

[Scider]

Savage Species IS a WotC product right?

Well then.

Page 51: Rogue Blade: "Because Blink (!) denies opponents their Dexterity bonuses to Armor Class, a rogue wielding a rogue blade always gets to add her sneak attack damage (provided her opponent is susceptible to such)."

For the record, a rogue blade is a rapier that constantly lets the wielder blink as the spell.

IMC, Blink sure as hell helps rogues sneak attack.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Savage Species IS a WotC product right?

Well then.

Page 51: Rogue Blade: "Because Blink (!) denies opponents their Dexterity bonuses to Armor Class, a rogue wielding a rogue blade always gets to add her sneak attack damage (provided her opponent is susceptible to such)."

For the record, a rogue blade is a rapier that constantly lets the wielder blink as the spell.

IMC, Blink sure as hell helps rogues sneak attack.

...waiting for the inevitable "But Savage Species isn't 3.5 so it doesn't count" argument.

Allow me to throw in my hat for the "the rogue attacks while material, so any inability to see when ethereal doesn't affect his sneak attacking" crowd. You wait until you're material, take a swing, and maybe disappear before it connects. As to why the rogue gets sneak attacks every round, try getting a friend and jumping around together in a dark room that has a strobe light set up to an interval of about one second. See how hard it is to track where your friend is? Now, imagine if you were fighting your friend instead of just jumping around. That would be pretty tricky, right? Now, imagine if your friend had darkvision, and could see just fine whether the strobe was on or off, but could only hit you when the strobe was on. No matter where you think he is when the light goes off, he'll always have the opportunity to lunge or dodge into a new position to surprise you before the light comes back on. But maybe he's not quick or lucky enough to catch you before the light goes off again, for whatever reason. Maybe he tried to go for your neck and had to reach around your arm to do it, which took just a bit too much time...

Anyway, since WotC specifically spells out that Blink allows sneak attacks every attack, I don't suppose there's anything left to say.

 

[RigaMortus]

That's where you make your mistake.

You don't know when you'll be where. If you did know, then there wouldn't BE a miss chance. You'd know.

It is not a matter of knowing or not knowing. That has nothing to do with it. It is a matter of pinpointing the spot on your target you want to attack, and striking it as quick as possible, before you Blink back. Your reaction time has nothing to do with if you "know" when you will Blink back and forth.

For arguements sake, let's assume that you Blink back and forth at a rate of once per second. Therefore, I know I will be on the Material Plane for 1 second, then I will Blink and be on the Ethereal for 1 second. Whether I am able to pinpoint a vital spot and strike at it within that 1 second window is not a matter of KNOWING I have a one second window, it is a matter of reaction, of reflexes, of speed. And that is where the 20% miss chance comes in. 20% of the time, you just aren't quick enough to pinpoint and strike the vital WHILE on the Material Plane.

You are saying that the 20% comes in when you strike from the Ethereal Plane. This would follow your arguement that the 20% is from concealment or not being able to see your target clearly. And if this were the case, I would agree with you. I am saying the 20% comes in when you strike from the Material Plane (where you can clearly see your target), but you blink into the Ethereal just before the blow lands.