Blog: Background and Themes a closer look.

[pemerton]

Caveat. I am not a playtester

<snip>

As far as classes go, if they are splitting skills and feats off into seperate silos then yes, as in 4e I would expect classes to be primarily focused on how you kill people, as it has always been really. But not exclusively.

Caveat noted!

The "not exclusively" is key here, I guess.

Historically, a number of spells have concerned exploration and interaction: MU spells like knock, fly (in some uses), charm (in some uses), passwall, dig, transmute rock to mud (in some uses), etc; and a bunch of clerical and magical divinations. I've been assuming that in D&Dnext these will continue to be class abilities. It would be interesting if they took some version of the ritual caster approach instead, and made them occupy the same PC build space as skills (thereby opening them up to traditionally non-spell-using classes, as in 4e).

In 3E and 4e there are silo crossovers in the other direction, too (though maybe not as many). Athletics/jumping, for example, is important for mobility in combat as well as in exploration, and Intimidate and Stealth also have combat as well as social/exploration uses.

It will be interesting to see the details.

 

[gweinel]

I don't think they mean the themes system will be an alternative to feats. They mean the themes system will replace the feat system. There will not be a big list of feats, and then a bunch of pre-picked packages. It'll just be the packages (and then if your group allows it, you can take feats from any combination of packages).

So pirate stuff will be pirate-only stuff, unless your group allows cross-theming.

If the pirate stuff would be pirate like abilities with the appropiate fluff, then i would be content (from small things like a parrot familiar, +to something for the gps found when looting to rather significant ones like +to attack & damage when raiding or when fighting on a ship).


But if it would only a +2 to use rope skill or +1 attack with cutlass or bunch of similar abilities then it would a step backward imho.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

yes

 

[El Mahdi]

I think that what I see here is a streamlined path of what we already do.
Backgrounds [are] just named the skill section of the ph. Only this time, [along with] the list of skills, [we'll] have also thematic skill bundles.

The feat section will be renamed [the] theme section and also will have character development paths: the themes.

As I said, what I see here is a better categorization of the character building proccess enriched with fluff.

Don't get me wrong, I like the fluff part, but I wanted something more. I wanted each skill/theme bundle to offer unique things to the character: The pirate concept (theme/background) would [add unique] pirate like abilities and not just the usual skills and feats that are available to everyone.

I don't think they mean the themes system will be an alternative to feats. They mean the themes system will replace the feat system. There will not be a big list of feats, and then a bunch of pre-picked packages. It'll just be the packages (and then if your group allows it, you can take feats from any combination of packages).

So pirate stuff will be pirate-only stuff, unless your group allows cross-theming.

I don't think either one of these is entirely correct, though I haven't read anything from WotC that says definitively either way on this (so I don't understand where you guys are getting this from). I may be wrong, and I'm certainly open to being corrected (with quotes please), but I really see the organization described by gweinel (a Feats section being renamed Themes, and the Skills section being renamed Backgrounds), and the entirety of GX.Sigma's take, as not likely. They would be seriously throwing a monkey wrench into the option of a 3E type character creation with 3E granularity, and I don't think they would do that (not as much with gweinel's idea, but majorly with GX.Sigma's). If they do, I think it's a significant mistake. I'd expect that a good number of 4E players would take issue with this also.

...of course we don't know how the feats will work in 5e, but I am assuming that [they] will have the same role [as] the feats of 3e/4e.

I'd say that's likely a safe assumption.

 

[gweinel]

As far as these go, we don't know yet. It could be that each theme/background includes some small game effect, although that can lead to bad design: frex if you give the Pirate theme sealegs, then suddenly you have implied that other characters cannot get sealegs. My feeling is that the prepackaged themes/backgrounds will have flavorfull benefits and the 'build your own' will supply a short list of useful but less cool options. So while you won't suffer mechanically from taking a by-the-book kit-bashed theme/background you will not get some thing as flavorful as whistling up your warhorse like a cowboy or having an automatic 'friendly' status with all barmaids.

You know, the thing that i would prefer more would be that even if you choose your own thematic bundle to get a nice thematic bonus (under a proper guidance/rules). I would prefer this bonus to be also something more than geting a friendly status with all barmaids (not that is bad actually ), but something more rewarding. Something that has the notion of an achievment or a status.

However, we still don't know if you get bonus, even a trivial and a fluff one, when you choose a theme. At the current state if i interpret correctly the solution to my question lies here:
I imagine some of you might be thinking that this system does not lend itself to using themes as they were presented in 4th Edition, but I disagree. Although it’s true that themes in 4th Edition provided benefits on top of those granted by feats, skills, class, and race, themes in D&D Next can have the same weight for our campaign settings. Let’s take the Gladiator theme from the Dark Sun setting. We get the same thing with the Gladiator background and Weapon Master theme. The Templar might be a Bureaucrat plus Templar theme (bolted on to a sorcerer or warlock class).

The above text means that the abilities of 4ethemes are translated as 5e feats, or just you get a certain atmosphere and flavor of the gladiator if you take some "mundane" skills and feats that would suit a gladiator?

 

[GX.Sigma]

I'm not sure this is accurate, the way the last article was phrased referred to Themes as a "feat delivery system". In a general sense, a delivery system is usually some added system to make whatever you're taking easier to get. I have a feeling feats will be in, but they were be primary organized into themes, and not simply a laundry-list of feats.

Theme-only feats would lead to needless bloat. I mean can you imagine a pirate-theme only +1 to hit and then a Slayer +1 to hit and then an Avenger-theme +1 to hit and so on and so on...

That's kind of what I'm saying. I'm not saying there won't be feats, but that a "feat" will be redefined as a "theme benefit," and will only exist as part of what a specific theme is. Some feats might be shared--Power Attack is Power Attack, but maybe more than one theme gets Power Attack. Basically what I'm seeing is something like this:

...

Slayer
You are a master of melee weapon combat. Whether sword or axe or mace, your mastery is all-reaching.
Benefits:

1. Power Attack: Once per turn, you can take a -2 penalty to the attack roll of any melee attack to gain a +2 power bonus to the damage roll.
2. Combat Prowess: You gain a +1 feat bonus to combat maneuver attack rolls.
3. Improved Critical: Your critical threat range is doubled.

Defender
You shield your allies by creating an un-ignorable threat to all who would strike your friends.
Benefits:

1. Defender Aura: All adjacent enemies take a -2 morale penalty to attack rolls that don't include you as a target.
2. Improved Defenses: You gain a +1 feat bonus to AC, and you gain a +1 feat bonus to STR and CON saving throws.
3. Attack of Opportunity: Whenever an enemy leaves a space threatened by your Defender Aura, you may make a melee basic attack against that enemy as an instant interrupt.

Weaponmaster
You have chosen to specialize in one weapon.
Benefits:

1. Weapon Mastery: You gain a +1 feat bonus to attacks made with a chosen simple, martial, or exotic weapon. You gain proficiency with that weapon if you don't already have it.
2. Weapon Expertise: You gain a +2 feat bonus to combat maneuver rolls made with your Weapon Mastery weapon.
3. Weapon Focus: You gain a +1 feat bonus to damage rolls with your Weapon Mastery weapon.

Special: You may take this theme more than once. Each time, you may choose a different weapon.



Avenger
Your oaths bring divine wrath upon the enemies of your god.
Benefits:

1. Oath of Enmity: As a free action, you can choose any enemy within 50 ft. When you make a melee attack against the target, you may roll twice and take the better result. You cannot choose another target until the target is defeated, or the end of the encounter.
2. Power Attack: Once per turn, you can take a -2 penalty to the attack roll of any melee attack to gain a +2 power bonus to the damage roll.
3. Radiant Vengeance: You gain a +2 divinity bonus to damage rolls against your Oath of Enmity target.

Cross-Theme Feats
With your DM's permission, you may swap a feat from your chosen theme for a feat from another theme.


Custom Theme
With your DM's permission, you may create a custom theme by choosing three feats, which can be from any theme(s).

 

[El Mahdi]

That's kind of what I'm saying. I'm not saying there won't be feats, but that a "feat" will be redefined as a "theme benefit," and will only exist as part of what a specific theme is...

I don't think so, but then again, I only know as much as anybody else outside of WotC or NDA's concerning this, and that's absolutely nothing.

But I certainly hope you're wrong. I wouldn't like this one bit.

 

[GX.Sigma]

I don't think so, but then again, I only know as much as anybody else outside of WotC or NDA's concerning this, and that's absolutely nothing.

But I certainly hope you're wrong. I wouldn't like this one bit.

This part leads me to believe that:

...a delivery system for skills and feats by condensing all the little choices into two bigger choices. Before I get any further, we fully expect players to customize by either swapping out a skill or feat from a background or theme, or by working with their Dungeon Master to create altogether new backgrounds and themes (even if working with the DM means “Do whatever you want!” ).

This implies that the themes and backgrounds systems are "it", and then if you want, your group can decide to just pick skills and feats willy-nilly. Which is the same system as 3.x and 4e, except it's explicitly adjudicated by the DM.

 

[El Mahdi]

This part leads me to believe that:

...a delivery system for skills and feats by condensing all the little choices into two bigger choices. Before I get any further, we fully expect players to customize by either swapping out a skill or feat from a background or theme, or by working with their Dungeon Master to create altogether new backgrounds and themes (even if working with the DM means “Do whatever you want!” ).

This implies that the themes and backgrounds systems are "it", and then if you want, your group can decide to just pick skills and feats willy-nilly. Which is the same system as 3.x and 4e, except it's explicitly adjudicated by the DM.

I see. It could mean that. Though I think that if that's what they were talking about, they would have said "we fully expect players to customize by swapping out a skill or feat from a background or theme, with one from another background or theme..." But that's parsing words. I doubt he was paying that kind of specific attention to his choice of language.

So, it could mean what you think it means, or it could mean something else, or even mean nothing at all. But your interpretation is definitely one possibility.

I guess I'll just have to wait until we see it during the open playtest.

 

[Ratskinner]

If Background is "where you are from", and is also the principal interface with the exploration and interaction pillars, does that mean that I can't change how my PC deals with exploration and interaction in the course of play?

And if themes are combat centred, and also are how you do you class schtick, does that mean that classes are primarily/exclusively combat centred?

Actually, I'm thinking we have three character pillars that each touch on two of the game pillars:

Class: Combat and Exploration
Background: Exploration and Interaction
Theme: Combat and Interaction

However that's just about totally unjustified speculation on my part.