Blog post on the feel of D&D (marmell, reynolds et all)

JeDiWiker said:
I'm not so used to those names that I can't live without them. But my point is that the *conventions* of the names I've seen are a bit too reminiscent of the D&D Miniatures Game, which suggests (to me, anyway) that the similarity is *intended* to bring the look and feel of D&D and the D&D CMG closer together, thematically. Again, in my opinion, an off-putting design decision.

Hmm. I don't see it that way. I do think that the CMG and new D&D names are very similar - I agree with you there - but I don't think the design decision was "let's make them closer".

Rather, I think this change is due to a fundamental change in how we approach D&D, and it's actually something that really began in 3e, not 4e. We just (mostly) hid it until now.

If you were to ask me during my AD&D playing days what my character was, I'd reply "a human magic-user". Now, we already see the genesis of the 4e monster naming scheme: I have a race and a class. The big difference between AD&D and 3e/4e is that if you asked me what I was fighting, I would have replied with "an ogre" or "an orc".

The big change of 3e was to give monsters class levels.

When you do this, it is no longer enough to say, "it's an ogre". You need to describe it further... thus: "an Ogre Rogue" or "an Ogre Scout". We're almost at the 4e naming system already.

However, we're also at the heart of one of the major problems with 3e: Preparation time for NPCs. Over and over I have heard complaints about how time-consuming it is to make high level NPCs. The expanded power of the system is great, but, oh, the complexity! (Not only that, the calculation of CR got more and more inaccurate). Towards the end of 3.5e, Wizards experimented with giving premade Monster/Class combinations in various books. For the most part they weren't well received ("we can do this ourselves!") although there were some that were appreciative. What were better received were the unusual combinations and those cases where new special abilities were granted to the monsters... things that lay outside the strict race/class combinations.

With 4e, this idea of giving different versions of common monsters - basically race/class combos, but without the strict rules for creation that could be such a pain in 3e - will be there from the start of the Monster Manual. However, there is a problem. What do we call them?

AD&D (and before) had shown the way - Race/Class. However, these creatures were no longer strictly belonging to a "class" in the way that it was understood in 3e. There's no predefined name - so the name that was chosen was one descriptive of what they do. Kobold Skirmisher (4e) and Kobold Scout (3e) are essentially the same naming convention.

Jumping back a bit to the beginning of 3.5e, this was also the time that D&D Miniatures was released. The first set (Harbinger) had a bunch of minis straight out of the monster manual - Displacer Beast; Ogre, and so forth. However, it also had five different orcs. One of the requirements of any collectable game is to be able to distinguish between the figures. You couldn't call them all "Orc". To make things worse, four of the orcs were basically fighters. Orc Fighter 1, Orc Fighter 2, Orc Fighter 3? Nah, hardly the most inspiring of names.

So, you go descriptive. Orc Warrior. Orc Spearfighter. Orc Archer. Orc Berserker. As the game goes on, you create another Ogre. Ogre Ravager... that's a descriptive term. It's also evocative, which is important. (Human Magic-User isn't really that evocative... Human Enchanter? Much more so).

D&D 4e seems to be copying DDM because it had to deal with the naming convention problem before D&D did. But really, the naming convention dates from the early days of D&D... just now upscaled to more than just humans and demihumans.

As for the Deathjump Spider...

I live in Australia. Being an Australian, I have a certain familiarity with the names of various poisonous creatures. Here's the thing: if you get bitten by a spider, you really need to know what type of spider it was so that you can be injected with the correct antivenin. They're not all called "spider". No, in this wonderful world we have Trap-Door Spiders, Black Widow Spiders, Sydney Funnel-Web Spiders, Redbacks, Huntsmen, Jumping Spiders...

Hmm: they're descriptive names. Some of how they appear, some of what they do.

One of my most hated things about D&D is when a monster is named a bunch of random syllables. I know what a Mind Flayer or an Ochre Jelly or a Displacer Beast is. Illithid? I have trouble pronouncing it! There are invented names that work, but for every one that works there are dozens that don't. (Flumph and Cifal come to mind; I'm trying to think of a 3e one that doesn't work, but they've escaped my mind at present... not memorable enough!)

For monsters that resemble other monsters - or more particularly real-life animals - I prefer that the name stay somewhat easy to remember. It's a spider! What type? "Deathjump".

Now, the actual form of "Deathjump" may be too anime/CMG/MMORPG for some people, and I sympathize with that, but at least it's descriptive and of more import than being attacked by a Moragon would have (Moragon being a word I've just made up. Probably).

Of course, you can get used to any word if you use it enough, but for most D&D monsters, they'll only really ever be seen once... and not for very long!

This doesn't change the fact that some people - like JD - will feel that the game is less "D&D" as a result, but it might at least provide some context for why the naming conventions have changed... even if they haven't that much!

Cheers!
 
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Actually I think the obfuscation of the names is so that its much more difficult for a 3d party to create a compatible product without playing by WOTCs rule.
 

smetzger said:
Actually I think the obfuscation of the names is so that its much more difficult for a 3d party to create a compatible product without playing by WOTCs rule.

Piping in real quick:

What in the world are you talking about?! How could that possibly affect third parties? Can they mystically be completely unable to use kobolds in their adventure because they don't know what skirmisher means? Are they completely incapable of writing a new adventure but not new monsters with different names? Do the new names have a mystical Magic Circle against Third Parties?
 

JeDiWiker said:
but I well remember playtesters complaining that d20 Star Wars felt like "D&D in space" because it used D&D rules mechanics, so at least some of that "look and feel" issue is in the mechanics

{slight thread derailment}

Well, to be fair JD, there was also stuff like this, which didn't help.

{/slight thread derailment}

-The Gneech :cool:
 

Think0028 said:
Piping in real quick:

What in the world are you talking about?! How could that possibly affect third parties? Can they mystically be completely unable to use kobolds in their adventure because they don't know what skirmisher means? Are they completely incapable of writing a new adventure but not new monsters with different names? Do the new names have a mystical Magic Circle against Third Parties?
I think he means that the name 'Orc Spearchucker' (for example) as a proper name could be copyrighted. Unlike just Orc
 

mach1.9pants said:
I think he means that the name 'Orc Spearchucker' (for example) as a proper name could be copyrighted. Unlike just Orc

Only thing I could think of like that would be Illithid, and that is completely original (I believe). Orc Spearchucker would likely be tough to get a copyright on, considering it's something generic + an english word, especially with an open license.

If there is no open license, then that's the real problem for 3rd parties.
 

MerricB said:
D&D 4e seems to be copying DDM because it had to deal with the naming convention problem before D&D did. But really, the naming convention dates from the early days of D&D... just now upscaled to more than just humans and demihumans.
I was going to say much the same thing, but Merric said it better already.

Plus, those names were already the Magic: The Gathering naming style before DDM got hold of them. Phylexuian Bramblebeasts and Hokkarian Night-Samurai, as two totally made-up examples, were the MTG naming team's bread and butter before there ever was a Orc Banebreak Rider. I'm not surprised to see those kinds of names in D&D. I'm just surprised it took them a whole edition to get to them.
 


JeDiWiker said:
A duration of "until end of encounter" and a "cooldown" of "at end of encounter" are very different mechanics. The former provides you with its benefit for the duration; the latter is a benefit that applies once, then can't be used again until you've "untapped," to borrow a CCG term.

Barbarian rage can also only be used 1/encounter, in addition to causing fatigue until the end of the encounter.
 

4e D&D doesn't feel like D&D? No news here. 4e is D&D in name only. This is already quite clear in what is known and will be indesputable when the final rules are released.

As to Wotc not allowing the game's storied designers have a look at the 4e rules? No news here. Like JD most would not be gushing about 4e's feel. Most would be delivering the message JD delivers - 4e doesn't feel like D&D - ie 4e is D&D in name only.

Of course, 4e designers may want all the "glory" for themselves, as well. A case of penis envy - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penis_envy - on the part of the 4e designers vs the 3e and earlier designers.
 

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