Blog post on the feel of D&D (marmell, reynolds et all)

[AZRogue]

I'd like to return to one of the original points, instead of the "does it feel like DnD" argument; honestly, the feel of the game is going to vary based upon individual taste. The game felt instantly like DnD to me after the first encounter and all of my players thought the same and couldn't find anything they disliked, though some of them won't know how much they like the system until they see the actual character creation rules.

The point I'd like to talk about is why would WotC NOT allow JD and Sean to become playtesters? That just boggles my mind. I might not agree with JD's taste in games, going by his critique, but who cares? I know what I like and don't need any validation to continue liking what I like.

But getting guys like JD and Sean in as playtesters would have been a great move, IMO. For one, there was an NDA. It's not like they're going to talk about what they don't like if they didn't like things, so WotC couldn't have been worried about that. For another thing, maybe they WOULD love the game, provided they could see the rules. Also, they would have had the opportunity to submit their critiques to the designers and their background would tend, I think, to make their critiques USEFUL, even if the designers decided not to take the advice (which is more than fair). Add to this the facts that they both WANTED to be playtesters, and asked to be, while Sean was even approached to do freelance work for the system, and it really makes absolutely no sense.

I don't know why they weren't allowed to be playtesters while other designers WERE allowed. I don't know why WotC failed to let them be playtesters but still wanted Sean to do work for 4E. I don't know why no one got back to them to at least say "sorry, we have enough playtesters at the moment" or "sorry, we don't like you, and you smell slightly of soup."

Odds are it was just an oversight, but one of several I've noticed that adds a sour note to my liking of 4E. I love what I've seen so far and I WANT to like this edition, after the complete and utter failure of the last one (for my group) but I wish they'd learn to be a bit more ... savvy.

They also should have been more forthcoming with the GSL information instead of giving a deadline, failing to meet it, and then basically saying "any minute now" for the last few months. "We're in the final stages of deciding on a timetable to vett a proposed meeting to determine a projected release date in the future" or something. In other words, "we have no idea at this time and cannot speculate, much less offer a deadline, in good conscience, though we will release a statement once we have something of substance to announce." We would still be in limbo, but we would have known we were in limbo instead of expecting something and slowly realizing things were in limbo on our own, which is worse IMO. But, whatever, I don't want to talk about the OGL/GSL, just pointing out another thing that I think they bungled a bit.

And I really wish they'd release more information than just Blog posts. I wish they were more active. One of my favorite memories of the 3E release was Sean (mostly) answering someone's direct question regarding some change in the system almost every day. Sometimes several times a day. The information was small, but it was in a steady stream, not small and in tiny infrequent dollops hidden in blog posts. Sean revealed a hell of a lot of information (while his ever present charm made me dream of dropping heavy objects on his head, as previously mentioned). At this point, without Enworld to gather the info that's been released, I'm not sure I'd know much of anything about 4E.

WotC should really thank Enworld. If it wasn't for the info I've found here I would have never given the new edition enough of a chance to decide that I like the direction it's going in. I mean, I love most of what I've found out and really can't wait to start playing with the actual rules--waiting for the release is driving me crazy, like waiting for christmas as a kid! But that's due to Enworld's efforts, unfortunately, not due to anything that WotC has done.

Was there a point to all this? Hell, I don't know. But I feel better now, so that's good enough for me. I'm oldschool and realize that posting to a message board is for my own edification and satisfaction, not to actually change anything. Only the whipersnappers think the point of posting is to accomplish something.

 

[Lanefan]

[...] but at least it's descriptive and of more import than being attacked by a Moragon would have (Moragon being a word I've just made up. Probably).

Of course, you can get used to any word if you use it enough, but for most D&D monsters, they'll only really ever be seen once... and not for very long!

tangent

One thing I've done for my new campaign is rename some of the old standard monsters - so far, so good in the "preserving the mystery" department; I've even got one player running a list of "monsters encountered", something I haven't seen in over 25 years! The players now know a "Grash" is an Orc renamed, but haven't worked out what "Quitch", "Knill", and "Turvitian" represent yet despite having met them all and had them described.

Biggest challenge for me is remembering to use the new names in the heat of the game.

/tangent

Lanefan

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

It was always blindingly obvious to me that Star Wars was D&D in space. I mean, you have evil wizards, katanae, and magic. What more do you want?

I will bite.

From Lucas' actual first attempt at writing Star Wars...

The Story of Mace Windu

Mace Windu,, a revered Jedi-bendu of Ophuchi who was related to Usby C.J. Thape, Padawaan learner to the fame Jedi...

And then it blathers on in a convoluted plot about a young princess, with an aged retainer named Skywalker, and two kidnapped imperial bureacrats, try to carry her clan treasure of aura spice across a desert planet to safety.

As we all know, D&D at its heart is just poorly recycled Kurosawa dressed up in the leavings off Herbert's plate.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

[Tangent] You know, i am going RIGHT NOW to my Eberron campaign document and begin a story about the Aurum clerk Usby C.J. Thape who stole a portion of aura spice from their vault in Sharn and is now on the run

 

[MaelStorm]

I'd like to return to one of the original points, instead of the "does it feel like DnD" argument; honestly, the feel of the game is going to vary based upon individual taste. The game felt instantly like DnD to me after the first encounter and all of my players thought the same and couldn't find anything they disliked, though some of them won't know how much they like the system until they see the actual character creation rules.

The point I'd like to talk about is why would WotC NOT allow JD and Sean to become playtesters? That just boggles my mind. I might not agree with JD's taste in games, going by his critique, but who cares? I know what I like and don't need any validation to continue liking what I like.

But getting guys like JD and Sean in as playtesters would have been a great move, IMO. For one, there was an NDA. It's not like they're going to talk about what they don't like if they didn't like things, so WotC couldn't have been worried about that. For another thing, maybe they WOULD love the game, provided they could see the rules. Also, they would have had the opportunity to submit their critiques to the designers and their background would tend, I think, to make their critiques USEFUL, even if the designers decided not to take the advice (which is more than fair). Add to this the facts that they both WANTED to be playtesters, and asked to be, while Sean was even approached to do freelance work for the system, and it really makes absolutely no sense.

I don't know why they weren't allowed to be playtesters while other designers WERE allowed. I don't know why WotC failed to let them be playtesters but still wanted Sean to do work for 4E. I don't know why no one got back to them to at least say "sorry, we have enough playtesters at the moment" or "sorry, we don't like you, and you smell slightly of soup."

Odds are it was just an oversight, but one of several I've noticed that adds a sour note to my liking of 4E. I love what I've seen so far and I WANT to like this edition, after the complete and utter failure of the last one (for my group) but I wish they'd learn to be a bit more ... savvy.

They also should have been more forthcoming with the GSL information instead of giving a deadline, failing to meet it, and then basically saying "any minute now" for the last few months. "We're in the final stages of deciding on a timetable to vett a proposed meeting to determine a projected release date in the future" or something. In other words, "we have no idea at this time and cannot speculate, much less offer a deadline, in good conscience, though we will release a statement once we have something of substance to announce." We would still be in limbo, but we would have known we were in limbo instead of expecting something and slowly realizing things were in limbo on our own, which is worse IMO. But, whatever, I don't want to talk about the OGL/GSL, just pointing out another thing that I think they bungled a bit.

And I really wish they'd release more information than just Blog posts. I wish they were more active. One of my favorite memories of the 3E release was Sean (mostly) answering someone's direct question regarding some change in the system almost every day. Sometimes several times a day. The information was small, but it was in a steady stream, not small and in tiny infrequent dollops hidden in blog posts. Sean revealed a hell of a lot of information (while his ever present charm made me dream of dropping heavy objects on his head, as previously mentioned). At this point, without Enworld to gather the info that's been released, I'm not sure I'd know much of anything about 4E.

WotC should really thank Enworld. If it wasn't for the info I've found here I would have never given the new edition enough of a chance to decide that I like the direction it's going in. I mean, I love most of what I've found out and really can't wait to start playing with the actual rules--waiting for the release is driving me crazy, like waiting for christmas as a kid! But that's due to Enworld's efforts, unfortunately, not due to anything that WotC has done.

Was there a point to all this? Hell, I don't know. But I feel better now, so that's good enough for me. I'm oldschool and realize that posting to a message board is for my own edification and satisfaction, not to actually change anything. Only the whipersnappers think the point of posting is to accomplish something.

Really good post. Specially the point about WotC not revealing a lot of info, and the fact that ENWorld made the difference.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I'd like to return to one of the original points, instead of the "does it feel like DnD" argument; honestly, the feel of the game is going to vary based upon individual taste. The game felt instantly like DnD to me after the first encounter and all of my players thought the same and couldn't find anything they disliked, though some of them won't know how much they like the system until they see the actual character creation rules.

The point I'd like to talk about is why would WotC NOT allow JD and Sean to become playtesters? That just boggles my mind. I might not agree with JD's taste in games, going by his critique, but who cares? I know what I like and don't need any validation to continue liking what I like.

But getting guys like JD and Sean in as playtesters would have been a great move, IMO. For one, there was an NDA. It's not like they're going to talk about what they don't like if they didn't like things, so WotC couldn't have been worried about that. For another thing, maybe they WOULD love the game, provided they could see the rules. Also, they would have had the opportunity to submit their critiques to the designers and their background would tend, I think, to make their critiques USEFUL, even if the designers decided not to take the advice (which is more than fair). Add to this the facts that they both WANTED to be playtesters, and asked to be, while Sean was even approached to do freelance work for the system, and it really makes absolutely no sense.

I don't know why they weren't allowed to be playtesters while other designers WERE allowed. I don't know why WotC failed to let them be playtesters but still wanted Sean to do work for 4E. I don't know why no one got back to them to at least say "sorry, we have enough playtesters at the moment" or "sorry, we don't like you, and you smell slightly of soup."

Odds are it was just an oversight, but one of several I've noticed that adds a sour note to my liking of 4E. I love what I've seen so far and I WANT to like this edition, after the complete and utter failure of the last one (for my group) but I wish they'd learn to be a bit more ... savvy.

My assumption is that there are enough designers out there that would have been interested in playtesting. But WotC needs a wider base of people testing their system, not just designers. Designers have probably a different perspective on a game, and their professional attitude to it can affect what they will focus on. They might even have a habit of reporting things differently, or, being the tinkerers they are, give feedback that is inappropriate (instead of critisizing or highlighting stuff, they might want to change rules. Which increases the workload on going through the feedback...) In the end, there needed to be some diversification in the group of testers. (Though I wonder if it's enough, considering that many playtesters were recruited from the RPGA)
And there was off course a limit of the number of playtest groups to take. Maybe they made a tombola, and some of the designers on their large list of possible playtesters got picked, but many didn't. Or they had actual preferences. "The blood-sucking mouse offered very good insights on topic X of book Y. We might want someone like him in the tests." Or it wasn't any intention, and Ari got his place just because he was in a (RPGA?) group that applied for it...

Off course, with more resources, more time, and if wishes where horses, I wouldn't mind more playtesters, and also more designers in the mix. (though, what's with the saying of "too many cooks..."?

What I don't get yet is why they haven't gotten more information by now, if they are actually approached to work again for WotC.

They also should have been more forthcoming with the GSL information instead of giving a deadline, failing to meet it, and then basically saying "any minute now" for the last few months. "We're in the final stages of deciding on a timetable to vett a proposed meeting to determine a projected release date in the future" or something. In other words, "we have no idea at this time and cannot speculate, much less offer a deadline, in good conscience, though we will release a statement once we have something of substance to announce." We would still be in limbo, but we would have known we were in limbo instead of expecting something and slowly realizing things were in limbo on our own, which is worse IMO. But, whatever, I don't want to talk about the OGL/GSL, just pointing out another thing that I think they bungled a bit.

I am really at loss what is happening their at WotC at the moment. Whoever is responsible for it, I hope he knows what he is doing, and I hope in the end, the final decision will also be positive for players and potential 3rd-party publishers. But I am really no longer as optimistic as Orcus is. (But can anyone be? ) It's sad. I love basically everything about 4E, but this part might become a weakness. Not that it would stop me getting 4E, but still...

And I really wish they'd release more information than just Blog posts. I wish they were more active. One of my favorite memories of the 3E release was Sean (mostly) answering someone's direct question regarding some change in the system almost every day. Sometimes several times a day. The information was small, but it was in a steady stream, not small and in tiny infrequent dollops hidden in blog posts. Sean revealed a hell of a lot of information (while his ever present charm made me dream of dropping heavy objects on his head, as previously mentioned). At this point, without Enworld to gather the info that's been released, I'm not sure I'd know much of anything about 4E.

WotC should really thank Enworld. If it wasn't for the info I've found here I would have never given the new edition enough of a chance to decide that I like the direction it's going in. I mean, I love most of what I've found out and really can't wait to start playing with the actual rules--waiting for the release is driving me crazy, like waiting for christmas as a kid! But that's due to Enworld's efforts, unfortunately, not due to anything that WotC has done.

I think WotC "trick" in marketing is using "media" like EnWorld doing the job. All information we have on 4E came from WotC. But it was the community of D&D fans that assembled it into stuff like the PHB 4E light, and that is really an amazing thing. But why do we assume that WotC didn't expect something like this too happen, and counting on it? It is a kind of "Viral Marketing". Expose some small tidbits, and the fans will go all over it, organize, analyze, critisize and fantasize about it. All this increases our personal investment in 4E, because we "worked hard" to assemble all the information we liked.
Off course, some of us might now believe WotC is stupid or incompetent for releasing so little information, but the truth is, they are just doing it in a way to make us even more interested.
Off course, this strategy doesn't work for everyone. But I think on some level, it works for all the people that still post here (even those that don't like everything - or anything - they see) more then we like to admit.
There might be a time - and more importantly, a "focus group" (like not-yet-roleplayers) - on which this strategy doesn't work. I suppose we will see something more in the future (The Rouse implied as much, though I would have expected to see something of it by now...), but I wouldn't count on it giving us more information - they will just be using different channels...

Was there a point to all this? Hell, I don't know. But I feel better now, so that's good enough for me. I'm oldschool and realize that posting to a message board is for my own edification and satisfaction, not to actually change anything. Only the whipersnappers think the point of posting is to accomplish something.

You accomplished to have people read something and thought about something. You can't really hope for more, I guess.

 

[OchreJelly]

I think WotC "trick" in marketing is using "media" like EnWorld doing the job. All information we have on 4E came from WotC. But it was the community of D&D fans that assembled it into stuff like the PHB 4E light, and that is really an amazing thing. But why do we assume that WotC didn't expect something like this too happen, and counting on it? It is a kind of "Viral Marketing". Expose some small tidbits, and the fans will go all over it, organize, analyze, critisize and fantasize about it. All this increases our personal investment in 4E, because we "worked hard" to assemble all the information we liked.

Agreed. And to compare, isn't this the very same thing that happened to the run up to 3E? If memory serves I came to this very site for my info back then, not WOTC, whose site was even more difficult to navigate back then. Everything was scoops, and leaks back then (again, my memory could be fuzzy). I remember very little official info except for maybe weeks before launch. I certainly don't remember any 3E PHB lite's being created with the info available.

Maybe it's just the nature of the internet and expectations some 8+ years later. I personally think they are doing fine release to release one new thing each week. We gamers tend to always be information starved , don't we?

 

[billd91]

... as opposed to Diamond Body, Abundant Step, Quivering Palm, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Indomitable Will, A Thousand Faces, Mordenkainen's Lugubrious Lucubration, Eyebite, Entropic Shield, Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer, Sepia Snake Sigil, Storm of Vengeance, Simbul's Spell Matrix, Simbul's synostodweomer...

I could keep going all day.

Familiarty with these odd names and phrases and the correspondent unfamiliarity with the 4e terms is probably one reason why Synostodweomer (!?!) is old school, but Tide of Iron doesn't feel like D&D.

It's true that the monk's powers are particularly "poetic" (read: obscure). My argument is that if you wanted to keep a sort of monkish flavor, the terms should have been confined there. But a power that is neither descriptive of the special effect nor the effect is unnecessarily obscure and 4e is compounding the problem rather than solving it.

 

[Cadfan]

Star Wars = Telekinetic Shao Lin Monks in Space

That's why we love it.

 

[The_Gneech]

First, the adventure in question has numerous precedents in the Tales of the Jedi era (where numerous Sith wannabes visit ancient Sith tombs on Korriban.

Second, the adventure in question was published over a year after the release of the original core rulebook--well after the playtesters had formed their opinion that d20 Star Wars was "D&D in space."

re: playtesters: yes, I realize, which is why I referred to "stuff like this" ... the particular scenario was just one that really jumped out in my mind as an example as "feeling like D&D." All I meant was that as much as I loved both the original d20 Star Wars and the RCR, there was a systemic tendency to "fall back on" D&D-style mechanics and/or challenges -- I don't think the observation is without merit. (If the playtesters in question were coming at it from the POV of people used to the very free-form, "plot first and map only if absolutely necessary" feel of the previous WEG game, they'd be even more prone to seeing it.)

In the context of the current discussion re: the "feel of 4E," I agree with you that some of it is mechanics. But there's more to it than that ... there's also the goals that the mechanics serve. Just like picking (electronic) locks and having very tactical battlegrids gave Star Wars a "D&D in space" feel to some people because they were looking for fast-moving action and chases through asteroid fields. In 4E, it seems to me, the goal is to make every player feel like a power-flingin' bad*** right out of the gate, which turns D&D tradition absolutely on its head. In previous editions, you didn't become a power-flingin' bad*** until the game had been going for five years and you'd lost three or more characters trying. Thus, in that vein at least, 4E doesn't "feel like D&D" because it's not really designed to.

Sorry if my comment stepped on your toes. FWIW, like I say, I did like your work on the Star Wars line.

-The Gneech