Blog post on the feel of D&D (marmell, reynolds et all)

[JeDiWiker]

I would say that these 'new' designations, like encounter powers, only seem strange because they are new. Once you've used them a bit you won't even notice them. Or so I imagine.

I honestly hope you're right.

JD

 

[JeDiWiker]

Exactly. One sentence- "The last orc falls to the floor. You sheathe your weapons, check one another to make sure everyone is alright, and move on."

If you insist upon narrating it like this- "The last orc falls. Ok, everyone, time for your mandatory 5 minute break! Nothing happens for five minutes. Ok, now move on." then you won't enjoy yourself. And its your own fault, too.

Well, sure, except that it's not the DM who gets to make the call. When he announces that the last orc has fallen, the players will be the ones saying "We take a coffee break to get our per-encounter powers back."

At the very least, after they've wandered about a bit, healing, searching, looting, wiping the blood off their weapons, and so forth, at least one player is going to ask "Have we been here five minutes? Have our per-encounter powers had time to regenerate?" How the DM answers is not the issue; it's the fact that nearly every group has that one player who's such a tactically-minded gamer that he's going to be "watching the clock" after every encounter.

JD

 

[Fallen Seraph]

I honestly hope you're right.

Well, that has been the case for me, so if I can be considered a model of it, then your hopes may be realized. I am a pretty heavy WoD player in it they have powers that work on a Per-Scene basis, and it has worked extremely well.

It gives balance, dramatic flare, tension, etc. to a scene. To have these powers as per-scene.

The same can be said for per-encounter powers in D&D, they are quite similar to eachother in many regards.

 

[malraux]

Well, sure, except that it's not the DM who gets to make the call. When he announces that the last orc has fallen, the players will be the ones saying "We take a coffee break to get our per-encounter powers back."

At the very least, after they've wandered about a bit, healing, searching, looting, wiping the blood off their weapons, and so forth, at least one player is going to ask "Have we been here five minutes? Have our per-encounter powers had time to regenerate?" How the DM answers is not the issue; it's the fact that nearly every group has that one player who's such a tactically-minded gamer that he's going to be "watching the clock" after every encounter.

JD

Easily fixed by the DM house ruling that, unless he says different, /encounter powers reset between combats. That leave it open for a surprise attack on a weakened party, but in almost all cases its just not an issue. I put this in the category of stuff with the player who always moves in a zig-zag, just because he can in 4e. Its distracting only because its new and different.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Well, sure, except that it's not the DM who gets to make the call. When he announces that the last orc has fallen, the players will be the ones saying "We take a coffee break to get our per-encounter powers back."

At the very least, after they've wandered about a bit, healing, searching, looting, wiping the blood off their weapons, and so forth, at least one player is going to ask "Have we been here five minutes? Have our per-encounter powers had time to regenerate?" How the DM answers is not the issue; it's the fact that nearly every group has that one player who's such a tactically-minded gamer that he's going to be "watching the clock" after every encounter.

This is one reason why I personally view the 5 minute concept as simply a baseline.

If the dramatic tension, story-points, action, combat, etc. has slowed down and that particular sequence of events has come to a close for a satisfactory amount of time, could be them hiding in a sewer for an hour trying to recover as guards run around above them. Could be 10 minutes spent cleaning their horses, etc.

If there is a signifigant enough pause-period and time between plot-scenes/points of dramatic/story tension then that is when encounter-powers come back.

 

[The Little Raven]

In our 4E-lite demo game, after every encounter, at least half of the party felt that they needed to take the 5-minute "coffee break" after each encounter in order to be effective in the next encounter.

I don't see how this is different or worse than 3e, where after every encounter, at least half of the party felt that they need to take the 5-minute "coffee break" after each encounter in order to be fully healed by a wand before the next encounter.

Nor do I see it being any different than the Barbarian's player telling the DM "I'm going to wait until my fatigue wears off before we continue on."

 

[JeDiWiker]

I don't see how this is different or worse than 3e, where after every encounter, at least half of the party felt that they need to take the 5-minute "coffee break" after each encounter in order to be fully healed by a wand before the next encounter.

I'm not saying it's worse, but I do think it *feels* different. You can reasonably expect a PC who's lost a lot of his hit points to want to be healed up to at least half his normal total before continuing. (Players who insist on "topping off" their characters are always going to do so, though--in any version of the rules.) But here, I'm talking about the difference between "I don't think I have enough hit points to survive another encounter" and "I really want to have my Power of Amaunator available for every encounter."

Further, I think it leads to an artificial rest period between groups of monsters, so that they can be technically considered "new" encounters. As I understand it, if the party goes from a group of goblins in this room to a group of goblins in the next room without waiting the full five minutes, they're considered to be still in the same encounter--and, thus, less prepared, for lack of having used their "per-encounter" powers less then five minutes ago.

Nor do I see it being any different than the Barbarian's player telling the DM "I'm going to wait until my fatigue wears off before we continue on."

Perhaps. But most parties aren't composed entirely of barbarians--or even classes that have "once per encounter" special abilities. True, a spellcaster who blows his day's allotment of spells in one encounter is going to lobby heavily for resting (for several hours), and I agree that that's bad. But it seems to me that we've merely traded resource management for time management.

JD

 

[Fifth Element]

I'm not saying it's worse, but I do think it *feels* different.

Sure. But so what? 3E *feels* different than 2E. AD&D *feels* different than BD&D. The claim that a new edition of D&D "doesn't feel like D&D", regardless of whether it's qualified with "to me" or not, is meaningless because there is no one feel for D&D. It implies there is one feel for D&D, and that the new edition no longer has that feel. But the implication is false.

Play 4E for a while, and it will probably feel like D&D too. Then when 5E comes along, we can get another different feel. And presumably, complain that it doesn't "feel like D&D".

 

[Keldryn]

I don't think the "5-minute" thing needs to be taken so literally.

Unless there is the equivalent of a time bomb ticking down, where each second is vital, I think it can be safely assumed that enough time passes between encounters for abilities to be renewed. After a battle, the characters will be cleaning and binding wounds, cleaning or sharpening weapons, retrieving arrows, adjusting their armour, retrieving any backpacks or gear that they dropped what the fight started... Or just take a few minutes to catch their breaths, refocus, have a drink of water, or whatever.

If the players fight a group of goblins, and a second group of goblins enters the room just as the last one falls (because they heard the noise and came to check it out), then it's part of the same encounter. If the players kill a group of goblins, then move on to the next room and fight a group of goblins waiting for them, it's generally safe to assume that it's a new encounter.

No time management is required whatsoever unless the plot requires that every minute be precious. As a DM, I wouldn't even require players to explicitly tell me that they were taking a breather to recover their powers. That is the default assumption, and it is only the exceptions -- such as when a second wave of monsters burst into the room before while a battle is in progress or just as it is ending -- where a refresh wouldn't occur. And I'd only use that shtick sparingly to heighten tension, or if the players were really careless.

 

[Henry]

I don't see how this is different or worse than 3e, where after every encounter, at least half of the party felt that they need to take the 5-minute "coffee break" after each encounter in order to be fully healed by a wand before the next encounter.

Nor do I see it being any different than the Barbarian's player telling the DM "I'm going to wait until my fatigue wears off before we continue on."

I hate to say it, but the 5-minute break reminds me MORE of 1st edition than 3rd. Any of those 1st edition players out there remember that the DMG said that it was ASSUMED that all combats took "one turn" (10 minutes) as characters looted bodies, dressed wounds, took quick breathers, etc.? 3e effectively got rid of the "one turn" rule, and here 4e is, bringing it back. It's not the first thing that reminds me of 1e (or as Ari Marmell says, reminds him of Basic/Expert/etc. D&D!) and the more they keep releasing it doesn't look like the last...