Blog post: Speeding up Combat #3 - Barking up the Wrong Tree
Nemesis Destiny
Adventurer
I like some of the ideas presented for threatening the PCs resources and making rest periods not a "given" to make players put a little more thought into "going nova" with dailies when they think they can get away with it.
I had considered using both solutions and may experiment with them in my next game. I am also thinking of using a different "recharge mechanic," for lack of a better term.
I like the idea of using surges as a resource. It fairly well represents the idea of a stamina or endurance meter. In our home games, we use surges as fuel for rituals (but have eliminated most of the monetary costs). We are also using a system where you must spend surges to regain hit points, even during an extended rest. I am also going to experiment with taking this one step further, and having daily powers only refresh if a character spends healing surges to do so. We also have the option of using them to recharge encounter powers during an encounter.
Granted, our "adventuring day" is not the standard x encounters-per-day; typically it's far fewer, unless in a dungeon, so this is actually a necessary change to put the challenge back into fighting monsters.
The downside to this, and the other solutions I've seen presented, is as you've pointed out, contrary to some of the more recently established wisdom in ending encounters quicker. Forcing players to ration resources more makes them cautious and less likely to nova and end a battle quickly if they can do the same thing by just hammering away for a bit longer with at-wills and encounter powers.
Food for thought though.
I had considered using both solutions and may experiment with them in my next game. I am also thinking of using a different "recharge mechanic," for lack of a better term.
I like the idea of using surges as a resource. It fairly well represents the idea of a stamina or endurance meter. In our home games, we use surges as fuel for rituals (but have eliminated most of the monetary costs). We are also using a system where you must spend surges to regain hit points, even during an extended rest. I am also going to experiment with taking this one step further, and having daily powers only refresh if a character spends healing surges to do so. We also have the option of using them to recharge encounter powers during an encounter.
Granted, our "adventuring day" is not the standard x encounters-per-day; typically it's far fewer, unless in a dungeon, so this is actually a necessary change to put the challenge back into fighting monsters.
The downside to this, and the other solutions I've seen presented, is as you've pointed out, contrary to some of the more recently established wisdom in ending encounters quicker. Forcing players to ration resources more makes them cautious and less likely to nova and end a battle quickly if they can do the same thing by just hammering away for a bit longer with at-wills and encounter powers.
Food for thought though.
ArcaneSpringboard
First Post
You have to remember though that the idea is for there to be more smaller encounters. If they're only fighting 2-3 standard monsters, or say, 1 Elite and a bunch of minions, they might be okay with not using Daily powers, and certainly not a bunch of them.
Quickleaf
Legend
Great article! Seems like this is the topic of the hour...or in the case of many 4e gamers a topic of debate for the last 2 years.
Basically there are three modes of thought about why 4e combats can lag...
1. Bad encounter design by the DM
2. Player indecisiveness / new to game
3. Problem with the rules as written
There has been a lot written about what DMs and players can do to speed up fights, but it seems like we've finally got the ear of the designers.
What is striking to me is that we've got the most playtested part of 4e (combat) undergoing revision of some basic assumptions, such as the number/XP value of challenges faced before a short rest - the "Reexamining the Dungeon" point made by Robert J Schwalb.
One of the posters at your blog said it nicely: quicker easier battles aren't about serious threats to the PCs (or their resources), instead they are about threats to their quest. In other words the stakes are different in the "skirmish" encounter, making them similar to skill challenges in that even in failure the game goes on.
So defeating the enemies isn't really in question - the PCs clearly have that capacity... Why bother with running a fight at all then? I would propose that every "skirmish" encounter would have as it's primary goal something besides killing the bad guys.
For example, disabling guards before scouts arrive with news, without sounding the alarm. A creative player might cast a spell on the alarm bell tower, nixing one means of alerting the enemy castle. Another might engage guards in melée...but their tactics will be to take out as many guards as they can as quickly as they can. Obviously the guards should be minions or lower level than the PCs. If the PCs succeed they can enter the castle unnoticed, but if they fail they must contend with increased security.
At least that's how I envision a "skirmish" encounter happening.
Basically there are three modes of thought about why 4e combats can lag...
1. Bad encounter design by the DM
2. Player indecisiveness / new to game
3. Problem with the rules as written
There has been a lot written about what DMs and players can do to speed up fights, but it seems like we've finally got the ear of the designers.
What is striking to me is that we've got the most playtested part of 4e (combat) undergoing revision of some basic assumptions, such as the number/XP value of challenges faced before a short rest - the "Reexamining the Dungeon" point made by Robert J Schwalb.
One of the posters at your blog said it nicely: quicker easier battles aren't about serious threats to the PCs (or their resources), instead they are about threats to their quest. In other words the stakes are different in the "skirmish" encounter, making them similar to skill challenges in that even in failure the game goes on.
So defeating the enemies isn't really in question - the PCs clearly have that capacity... Why bother with running a fight at all then? I would propose that every "skirmish" encounter would have as it's primary goal something besides killing the bad guys.
For example, disabling guards before scouts arrive with news, without sounding the alarm. A creative player might cast a spell on the alarm bell tower, nixing one means of alerting the enemy castle. Another might engage guards in melée...but their tactics will be to take out as many guards as they can as quickly as they can. Obviously the guards should be minions or lower level than the PCs. If the PCs succeed they can enter the castle unnoticed, but if they fail they must contend with increased security.
At least that's how I envision a "skirmish" encounter happening.
Baumi
Adventurer
Yeah I totaly agree with the blog! 
My solution was to introduce a Skill-Challenge for "unimportant" Combats (how attacks and limited Powers work within a Skill-Challenge) and said that you can only use an extended rest between sessions or levels (depends on the campaign) but you will restore a small amount of surges, dailies or an action point during short rests (no multible short rests allowed).
But I do hope that we sill see an official Version of a quick-Combat System for the non Boss-Battles.
My solution was to introduce a Skill-Challenge for "unimportant" Combats (how attacks and limited Powers work within a Skill-Challenge) and said that you can only use an extended rest between sessions or levels (depends on the campaign) but you will restore a small amount of surges, dailies or an action point during short rests (no multible short rests allowed).
But I do hope that we sill see an official Version of a quick-Combat System for the non Boss-Battles.
Daern
Explorer
(crossposted from myrpgame.com)
I agree with the split of standard and dramatic battles. My DM, [MENTION=89625]Robtheman[/MENTION], tried out these skirmish rules (see link below) recently and we enjoyed it, working through a gridless series of narrative encounters before squaring off for a tactical battle at the end. The thing is that everyone had a great time playing out battles before 4e’s tactical depth, and it can still be fun, but now we can toggle back and forth.
~ Neradia: Fields of Battle: Quick Skirmish Rules
I agree with the split of standard and dramatic battles. My DM, [MENTION=89625]Robtheman[/MENTION], tried out these skirmish rules (see link below) recently and we enjoyed it, working through a gridless series of narrative encounters before squaring off for a tactical battle at the end. The thing is that everyone had a great time playing out battles before 4e’s tactical depth, and it can still be fun, but now we can toggle back and forth.
~ Neradia: Fields of Battle: Quick Skirmish Rules
Prestidigitalis
First Post
Ick. Small combats are fun. Very few skill challenges are fun.
If you really are good enough with skill challenges that your players truly enjoy them, please post some examples -- the world needs them.
Interesting thoughts. I do like the old school many more combats against much weaker foes to wear the party down before the big battle.
One thing I am considering is make an extended rest take a full 24 hours. This would make the players think twice before interrupting a dungeon crawl for an extended rest or using dailies on an overland trek. Or you could make it so that an extended rest can only happen once a week.
That sounds interesting too.
Just throwing another diagnosis here for perhaps installment #4.
I believe healing is one of the culprits to slow combat. Two leader words and an emergency button is all you should need for a party of 5. For a party of 6, add one more emergency button.
Healing is not fun to me. Learning to distribute damage taken among the party reduces the amount of mid-encounter healing, and during a short rest you can do all the post-encounter healing you need. I find this to be a fun tactical challenge.
Healing vs damage taken is often an arms race between DM and players. The more healing you have the more the DM wants to hurt you to challenge you, and either encounters run longer, or because of massive damage monsters have to do, you either run low on surges fast, or end up with some close calls or a few deaths due to the impact of focused fire from massive damage dealing monsters, especially against parties of 6.
The less healing you have, the DM will adjust the damage coming at you accordingly, and you can have thrilling combats, avoid slug fests, and can play through more encounters a day.
With the current state of things, it's not unusual for me to see a defender burn through 6 out of 12 surges in 1 encounter, and a striker burn through 4 out of 8. This is because there are so many ways to trigger healing surges mid-encounter, and you still have to heal up at the end. I would much rather see the defender use 3-4 surges per encounter, and expect the rest to use 2-3 surges (depending on their build and role).
I've played and run encounters where there was no leader in the party, and they are absolutely thrilling, and they are fast. I feel healing slows down combat (via DM meta to challenge PC's) and should be considered a culprit when examining solutions for speeding up combat encounters.
Why are low level encounters fast and furious? Because there aren't as many HP resources and healing surge triggers, and because monsters deal a proportionately challenging amount of damage. At levels 1-4 I was able to run 3 encounters in a session easy with a good bit of roleplay in between, and 5-6 encounters in an adventuring day. As you get to paragon, I don't plan for more than 1 combat encounter a session (so we actually have some time for RP), and I have a difficult time running more than 3 encounters an adventuring day.
When examining all the knobs and dials to speed up encounters, I think it would be prudent to take a look at the healing faucet as well.
I believe healing is one of the culprits to slow combat. Two leader words and an emergency button is all you should need for a party of 5. For a party of 6, add one more emergency button.
Healing is not fun to me. Learning to distribute damage taken among the party reduces the amount of mid-encounter healing, and during a short rest you can do all the post-encounter healing you need. I find this to be a fun tactical challenge.
Healing vs damage taken is often an arms race between DM and players. The more healing you have the more the DM wants to hurt you to challenge you, and either encounters run longer, or because of massive damage monsters have to do, you either run low on surges fast, or end up with some close calls or a few deaths due to the impact of focused fire from massive damage dealing monsters, especially against parties of 6.
The less healing you have, the DM will adjust the damage coming at you accordingly, and you can have thrilling combats, avoid slug fests, and can play through more encounters a day.
With the current state of things, it's not unusual for me to see a defender burn through 6 out of 12 surges in 1 encounter, and a striker burn through 4 out of 8. This is because there are so many ways to trigger healing surges mid-encounter, and you still have to heal up at the end. I would much rather see the defender use 3-4 surges per encounter, and expect the rest to use 2-3 surges (depending on their build and role).
I've played and run encounters where there was no leader in the party, and they are absolutely thrilling, and they are fast. I feel healing slows down combat (via DM meta to challenge PC's) and should be considered a culprit when examining solutions for speeding up combat encounters.
Why are low level encounters fast and furious? Because there aren't as many HP resources and healing surge triggers, and because monsters deal a proportionately challenging amount of damage. At levels 1-4 I was able to run 3 encounters in a session easy with a good bit of roleplay in between, and 5-6 encounters in an adventuring day. As you get to paragon, I don't plan for more than 1 combat encounter a session (so we actually have some time for RP), and I have a difficult time running more than 3 encounters an adventuring day.
When examining all the knobs and dials to speed up encounters, I think it would be prudent to take a look at the healing faucet as well.
