Blog: Resilient Heroes

[Sunseeker]

Any way of healing (and actually any game feature) that resembles a pc game would be a huge disapointment for me and for my group and probably a reason to not invest to the new iteration of the game...

Keep in mind, most RPG video games are based off the d20 system. You're not doing it like them, they're doing it like you.

 

[gweinel]

Keep in mind, most RPG video games are based off the d20 system. You're not doing it like them, they're doing it like you.

I am aware of that fact, but i think we both know exactly what i meant in my previous post.
In any way i am talking about a specific way of playing that is more lethal, more gritty and a game system that offers me more freedom to built the kind of game that i want.
In 2e i had this feeling about 80% (but the game mechanics really sucked), in 3e/3.5e this was about 70 - 75% (with better mechanics) and in 4e this dropped to 25-30%. It is sad that i realised that very late in the 4e...

Reading the last 24 hour news i become more and more pessimistic.

 

[Trance-Zg]

Personally, I hate healing surges and that "I get my HP instantly back at no cost".

If your party doesn't have a cleric? thought luck...use cover, use ambush, pick battles, boost AC any way possible.

Best solution to limited amount of unlimited healing(haha!) was in complete champion: Healing devotion, good devotion and Touch of healing feats.

We reworked natural healing from 1HP/HD per nights rest to 10%maxHP per nights rest no help high HP classes and wizards gets the short end here(guess what? they need one). Whole day in the bed is 20% max HP.

Of course DC 15 heal doubles it and DC 25 heal triples it.

So some self healing yes, but not to all as that makes it non special.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Speaking purely personally, WP/VP doesn't do it for me. I feel that we already have a measurement in the game of attrition and damage. It's called "hit points."

The problem is though that it combines actual physical damage with everything else hit points represent. Physical damage unless magically healed, is only restored relatively slowly (in terms of character adventuring) while luck, inner strength, divine providence etc works on a much more flexible time scale. This puts pressure on finding believable ways of "healing" that can match the typically desired pace of adventuring. Rather than finding a "patch" or "workaround" for the hit point system, why not fix the real issue at the core?

Keeping hit points (not "vitality") as they are but extracting out wounds (physical damage) allows for much more exploration and flexibility of the hit point concept (for players that wish to do that). Hit points as a "morale" influenced resource make more sense. A warlord or fighter can increase the morale (some hit points), by defeating an opposing commander or pivotal combatant. A warlord can get more out of an ally who is spent (on 0 hit points), motivating them (giving them a chunk of hit points) to go on. A character through their own inner strength can get their second wind providing a suitable chunk of hit points. A rogue who gets lucky (rolling a "20" or having their opponent roll a "1") might get a little spurt of hit points to represent "making their own luck". A cleric or priest might offer a specific prayer or blessing that gives a small chunk of hit points to all their allies. Seeing an ally downed by an enemy may give a surge of hit points to a witnessing character who carries utter revenge in their heart. Without the issues of such things confusing players by increases of hit points being confused with "healing wounds", there are a stack of situations for hit points to be gained in combat.

On the other foot, there now become new and more insidious ways of affecting characters through hit point loss or possibly caps. Fear becomes a loss of morale (or a loss of hit points) which fighters, paladins and clerics might be more resistant to. A comment on another thread got me thinking that perhaps the loss of a loved one or ally could act as a cap on hit points to represent the mental drain and condition of a grieving character. A character who is fatigued might be capped at half hit points, an exhausted character perhaps a quarter. Again, the opportunities here are bounded only by the definition of hit points (a definition no longer weighed down by needing to consider actual physical damage).

I also think this has bang-on effects for the exploration portion of the game. A deadly trap that riddles you with poison darts seems less psychologically potent when you can simply surge away the damage. Turning those surges into raw HP changes the calculus: human beings being very risk-averse, the punch of loosing HP you can't get back is much more potent than loosing HP, then loosing surges.

But what if traps that are not avoided deal wound damage or other penalties? A pit trap or fall becomes a much more focused on exploration element. That trap in the door becomes something that you don't just take an adamantine axe to. Traps should specifically "not" do hit point damage but target wounding or provide some form of specific penalty to the character. Doing that really does provide a focus on traps as something other than hit point speed bumps.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[I'm A Banana]

The problem is though that it combines actual physical damage with everything else hit points represent.

That's not really a problem for very many people, I think. Without surges, you have a simple scenario where you take damage that doesn't really affect you much mechanically until you take that last bit, which can render you unconscious.

HP in this scenario represent both physical ability and luck and other things, but there is a definite point at which they turn from one to the other: when you get knocked out, that was DEFINITELY a physical blow.

Unless you use surges, in which case maybe it wasn't, if the combat ends.

FWIW, I do like the "bloodied" distinction as a particular "Oh no, I am taking some damage here, guys!" trigger. It's a nice ping before you're unconscious that something is actually happening to you, even if not much is mechanically tied to it. It helps folks pay attention.

VP/WP is an interesting system, and I wouldn't count it out entirely, period, but it is an unnecessary complication for a lot of players who are just fine with regular ol' HP.

At least 'till surges come along and make the whole thing a little senseless.

 

[howandwhy99]

This is still encounters without consequences thinking. Monks can self heal in my game. There are a few reasons why. None of them have to do with the 15-minute workday or extending the average number of rounds in a combat.

Second winds come from a design looking for a rationale. I suggest working at the same problem from the opposite direction. Not exclusively, just to balance out both approaches. Once we learn to see challenges from multiple perspectives our approaches to them become more nuanced and less reactionary.

 

[Lanefan]

Here is what I want: I want DM's to be able to easily put together encounters. So as DM, I want to be able to assume PC's are going to start every encounter with the same number of hit points. This puts a lot less strain on the potential swing an encounter can have due to initiative, or how worn out the PC's are from previous encounters. I also want DM's to be able to determine the approximate length of the adventuring day. Some groups like to play 1 combat days, some groups like 2-4, some like 4-7, and sometimes it's a mix. I don't necessarily want to be strapped down by a system enforced limit on how much combat a group can handle in an adventuring day.

It's not up to the DM to determine the length of the adventuring day, or what the party does within it. It's up to the party, as represented by the players.

If the party are worn down and have to choose between resting or carrying on, that's a choice - with (I hope) consequences both good and bad either way. But if either you-as-DM or the game-as-system is keeping their tanks topped off all the time then the validity (or even the existence) of that choice goes out the window.

I don't design encounters assuming they'll be at full h.p. when (or if) they hit said encounters. Hell, most of the time when I come up with a given encounter in an adventure I don't even know which characters or even which party will be there at the time to find it!

I also want to note, I think a heavy reliance on wand/potion healing is just a terrible idea as a system wide mechanic. Character wealth and magic items should not affect the system in such a crucial way. Do we want people to recover all their hit points between encounters? If the answer is yes, just make it so. Saying "yes, but only if your characters are wealthy enough, and your DM allows magic items" is just a needless hindrance.

Should there be healing potions in the game? Probably, but that discussion would need to take place after a solid non-magic item reliant healing system is in place.

I agree about the reliance on wand-potion healing being bad design.

However, healing surges and other things that let characters recover unrealistically fast without magic are also bad design.

As for healing classes: there's a whole bunch of classes that are effectively re-skinned Clerics (Druid, Shaman, seventeen versions of Witch, etc.) that ought to be able to cast curative spells - and who, really, all should be using divine magic to do it. Pick yer flavour; they're fun to play.

Lanefan

 

[Mengu]

If your party doesn't have a cleric? thought luck...use cover, use ambush, pick battles, boost AC any way possible.

That is fine if that's how you like to run your games. You can even run 4e that way. It would be a simple matter of removing any and all non-magic healing. Remove the ability to spend surges during a rest. You need potions of healing or a cleric. Disallow warlords and the like. Voila, you have the style of game where if you don't have a cleric or potions, you're screwed. And if surges offend you, remove them, and let all healing resources roll Nd8+X for healing. Done.

5e, is just trying to build in all these house rules for you.

So I suppose they might say
Healing method #1: You have hit points, clerics, wands, and potions. Curative magic patches up a variable amount of hit points.
Healing method #2: You have healing surges. A curative resource patches up a fixed amount of hit points and costs a surge.
Healing method #3: You have infinite healing, heal up to max at the end of each rest.
...
Healing method #4876: You can't heal. At the end of each session, fast forward 3 months for recovery, or make a new character.

Whatever... If they're trying to please everyone, this is what they'll need to do.

 

[Mengu]

It's not up to the DM to determine the length of the adventuring day, or what the party does within it. It's up to the party, as represented by the players.

I must disagree. As DM, I design the adventure, not the players. I need to know how many encounters they can handle before they have to take an extended rest. Without that knowledge, I may end up designing adventures that are cakewalk where the PC's don't feel taxed at all, or I may end up designing adventures that are impossible to finish under time pressure. Length of the adventuring day is a DM tool. I can even design adventures, where I know they will be strapped on resources, and build in consequences for taking extended rest. Any way I look at it, I need to know what length of adventuring day I can prepare for.

 

[FireLance]

You know, between this thread and the one on nostalgia, in which I posted that I thought it would be great if in 5e, any character in a tight situation could choose to draw on extraordinary resources, I've got Stan Bush's "The Touch" running through my mind.

You know, the song with lyrics like, "You're at your best when the going gets rough" and "And you never give in when your back's to the wall" and "It's in the blood, it's in the will, it's in the mighty hands of steel, when you're standin' your ground".

Oh, just go listen to it.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZKpByV5764]Stan Bush - The Touch - YouTube[/ame]

So really, what I would like is some kind of mechanic which allows characters in a tight situation to draw on extraordinary resources, possibly including extra hit points, temporary hit points, vigor points, morale points or luck points (whatever you choose to call them) that work exactly like hit points, etc.

That said, I'm not wedded to healing surges. Healing surges are one way to achieve this, but I'm sure that they're not the only way to do it. You can have a second wind action that works once (or more times, to taste) per day that doesn't make any reference to healing surges.

Maybe some might feel that allowing characters to regularly and reliably tap upon such extraordinary reserves of will and determination cheapens it, but I believe this is a case where life style affects play style.

You see, my gaming group is made up of busy working adults with a variety of responsibilities. We try to make time to game once every other week, but if we're unlucky we could go for a month or longer between games. Hence, I suppose we are more tolerant of mechanics that allow million to one chances to crop up nine times out of ten. I guess it doesn't get "old" or "cheap" for us because we don't play often enough for us to get jaded by it.