Bloodlines - clarification on how it works needed

[Ghostknight]

Right, I got UA yesterday and started reading. I found the bloodlines interesting and was trying to get my mind round how they work.

Is it -

a) It states that they do not add to the character level - so essentially it is saying that for a major bloodline the person needs double the xp each level (first to level the bloodline, and then to level the character). Effectively this means the character is going to use 420000xp to get to 20th level, will have the bloodline abilities to 20th level, character class abilities to 20th level, saves and skill points as a 20th level character BUT skill levels as a 40th level character DC vs their spells as a 40th level character etc.

b) Bloodlines are levels but then a major bloodline character is underpowered compared to other characters as no extra skill points, character abilities etc as they level.

So option a is very high powered (normally this amount of xp would be a 28th level character), trading 8 class levels for 20 extra features, higher DCs, higher skill points and only needing the lower xp total (in this case 21000 xp) for the next level.

Option B is very underpowered so I am thinking that option a is meant and this is a high power variant. I am correct in this thinking or have I missed something?

 

[Cheiromancer]

I had read it as Option B, and rejected it as underpowered. But now I think something like option A might be the correct reading.

However your presentation of Option A is not quite right; you level in a major bloodline only 3 times, not 20; once before level 3, once before level 6, and once before level 12. You can level even later, but you take a 20% penalty to experience and don't get any more traits until you pay off the bloodline level. You could also level three times before reaching second level, but you would only get the 1st bloodline trait (which is tied to your "real" character level) and who wants to spend that long before levelling up? So I think people will wait until just before levels 3, 6 and 12 to level their bloodlines.

As you noted, this levelling does not increase character level, and it is your character level which determines what traits you get. So it would be, at most, 2000 xp + 5000 xp + 11000 xp = 18000 xp before level 12 in order to get those 12 abilities and all subsequent ones. To a 12th level caster, with 66000 xp or so, this is a substantial amount; a level and a half. But by 20th level he is less than a level behind his companions who lack the bloodline.

 

[Ashardalon]

It is option B), but propably not exactly in the way you think. Bloodline levels (the 1 to 3 levels you need to take to make the bloodline working) do add to a number of things (Quote from page 19):

A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class featurs. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters
Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class levels). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though--only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.

Basically, bloodline levels are a variable Level Adjustment with a few "gems" thrown in.

 

[Li Shenron]

Basically, bloodline levels are a variable Level Adjustment with a few "gems" thrown in.

That is also what I thought, although I have already forgotten and I should go back and read it again

In other words, a bloodline level is an "empty level" with +0 BAB, +0 ST, 0 skill points/level and hit dice d0 *. You still become 1 level higher for any purposes (level-based abilities such as Drow SR or Stunning Fist, skill max rank, others...), including Xp calculation.

* that may not be accurate, you really don't get 1 more HD (for example, at level 4 + bloodline 1 you are still subject to Sleep), and this may also mean it doesn't count for regular feats

It is true that a major bloodline "costs" 3 levels, each of which must be taken before a deadline or otherwise you get Xp penalties until you take it.

 

[iceifur]

It is option B), but propably not exactly in the way you think. Bloodline levels (the 1 to 3 levels you need to take to make the bloodline working) do add to a number of things (Quote from page 19):


Basically, bloodline levels are a variable Level Adjustment with a few "gems" thrown in.

Exactly, and partially due, IMHO, to the fact that Bloodline benefits are typically weaker than those things that would require a true level adjustment. Of course, it may be that I'm tired, cranky, and really need to go to bed now...

-B-

 

[Ghostknight]

I had read it as Option B, and rejected it as underpowered. But now I think something like option A might be the correct reading.

My main rejection of option B is the statement that it does not add to character level. So it made me think that this is more of a burn xp for power like in the creation of magic items.

However your presentation of Option A is not quite right; you level in a major bloodline only 3 times, not 20; once before level 3, once before level 6, and once before level 12.

Right. Thats what I get for reading when sleep deprived (two sick children - about three hours a night sleep since Friday).. Makes a lot more sense and is not nearly as big an xp burden, also it is only +3 to DCs etc as only three bloodline levels are taken.

 

[Ghostknight]

It is option B), but propably not exactly in the way you think. Bloodline levels (the 1 to 3 levels you need to take to make the bloodline working) do add to a number of things (Quote from page 19):


Basically, bloodline levels are a variable Level Adjustment with a few "gems" thrown in.

But also on pg 19 is the following:

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

So to me it is saying you are burning xp for these abilities equal to the amount of xp for specific levels (so it is a cost of 18000xp for a major, 16000xp for an intermediate and 11000xp for a minor), but those levels are then gained again as character levels via class levels, the bloodline "level" not adding to the character level as a class level would. In essence this then becomes a powerful option, I would probably rule 0 that character levels ARE used and probaly more than the ones that are suggested here (try to at least balance out the bloodline power to an equivalent PC without bloodlines - taking into account that if bloodline levels are character levels the character is going to suffer from lower BAB, saves, spells/day etc)

 

[Knight Otu]

But also on pg 19 is the following:

Yes, but they call it bloodline level for a reason. It does not increase your character level, but it does increase your effective character level. It is still a level, but, as Li Shenron put it, an empty level.

At 20th level, a character could have 20 normal character levels, 19 normal levels and a bloodline level (for minor bloodlines), 18 levels and 2 bloodline levels, or 17 levels and 3 bloodline levels.

Here's a thread on Andy Collins' Messageboards about bloodline rules. Maybe it helps.

 

[Pax]

Right, I got UA yesterday and started reading. I found the bloodlines interesting and was trying to get my mind round how they work.

[...]

b) Bloodlines are levels but then a major bloodline character is underpowered compared to other characters as no extra skill points, character abilities etc as they level.

Sort of like this.

I treat the Bloodlines as a sort of steadily-increasing Level Adjustment - sort of the OPPOSITE of UA's rules on buying down level adjustments. And no, of ocurse, I wouldn't allow them to be bought down until after level 20, at the SOONEST. If at all.

So option a is very high powered (normally this amount of xp would be a 28th level character), trading 8 class levels for 20 extra features, higher DCs, higher skill points and only needing the lower xp total (in this case 21000 xp) for the next level.

A Major Bloodline means that at 20th level, you shoudl have 17 class levels. Your 3d, 6th, and 12th levels will be "Bloodline" levels, the other 17 will be whatever you want them to be.

Basically, treat them as a race or template, whose benefits - and costs - come in slowly, over all 20 levels of your career.

 

[Cheiromancer]

You still become 1 level higher for any purposes (level-based abilities such as Drow SR or Stunning Fist, skill max rank, others...), including Xp calculation.

Not for XP calculation!

Bloodline levels do not increase your character level. RAW:

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below)...

The XP required to advance is based on your character level, which bloodline levels do not affect. 1000 xp to get from level 1 to 2, another 2000 xp to get from level 2 to 3, and so on. If you are level 3 you can pay 3000 xp for a "bloodline level"- you now need to earn another 3000 xp to get to level 4. You don't count as being character level 4 (which would require an additional 4000 xp to level up) because a bloodline level does not increase your character level.

If you are 12th level and have three bloodline levels, you need 78,000 XP to get to 13th level. You do not count as 15th level and, you don't need 120,000 XP. You will have spent XP before then to pay for your bloodline levels, but how much you paid depends on when you paid for them.