BLUE ROSE Returns, Championing Diversity & Inclusiveness

Back in 2005, Green Ronin published a roleplaying game called Blue Rose. It was designed by Jeremy Crawford (yep, him who works at WotC on D&D 5E), Steve "Mutants & Masterminds" Kenson (that's his actual middle name), Dawn Elliot, and John Snead, and was billed as a "romantic fantasy" game, of the genre for whom Tamora Pierce, Mercedes Lackey, and Jacqueline Carey are known. It used the True20 System, which was a slimmed-down, modified version of the d20 System, and won multiple ENnies. And now it's back!

Back in 2005, Green Ronin published a roleplaying game called Blue Rose. It was designed by Jeremy Crawford (yep, him who works at WotC on D&D 5E), Steve "Mutants & Masterminds" Kenson (that's his actual middle name), Dawn Elliot, and John Snead, and was billed as a "romantic fantasy" game, of the genre for whom Tamora Pierce, Mercedes Lackey, and Jacqueline Carey are known. It used the True20 System, which was a slimmed-down, modified version of the d20 System, and won multiple ENnies. And now it's back!

This time round, the game will be using the Adventure Game Engine, which powers the Dragon Age RPG, and will be funded via a Kickstarter launching in April. One of Green Ronin's reasons for bringing it back is that the game tackled a number of diversity and inclusiveness related issues, and those issues are very much the subject of intense - and often unpleasant - debate and conflict today.

You can click on the cover image below for the full announcement from Green Ronin's Chris Pramas.

BlueRoseCover.jpg

What's Romantic Fantasy? It's "a subgenre of fantasy fiction, describing a fantasy story using many of the elements and conventions of the romance genre". According to Wikipedia, the genre's focus is on social, political, and romantic relationships.
 

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billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
The problem with Blue Rose is that it has a very heavy hand compared to the authors above. It really does not like the idea of subtlety. Everything is dialed up to 11, and it's hard not to roll your eyes at some of the excesses.

"Ouran High School Host Club" levels of excessive?
 

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Jürgen Hubert

First Post
Lovecraft in his personal letters and in various writings would be considered extremely racist today; how racist he'd be considered in his time, is really debatable. Don't rely solely on depictions in the media, movies, etc that take creative license to tell a story.

Here is what Kenneth Hite has to say - a scholar whose opinion I trust, not the least because he is an RPG author as well:


'This will do as well as anywhere as a place to remind a 21st century readership that Lovecraft’s racism is not somehow “separate” from his other thought, for all that it seldom takes the front row in his fictional themes. Lovecraft described himself as a blend of three streams of thought: an tiquarianism, scientism, and the weird. His racism fully partakes of the first two. He clearly believed that the Anglo-Saxon culture of roughly the 18th-century “Augustan Era” was the high point of human aesthetic achievement, and strongly self-identified with it. He was a “cultural” racist, who believed that cultural admixture (and even assimilation) of foreigners, and especially Jews, was polluting what remained of that culture in New England, and in Anglo-Saxondom generally.'

[...]

'With all that under our belt: Okay, so Lovecraft was a racist. (And very much an anti-Semite, although to the atheist HPL, it was pretty much the same thing.) No question. He was probably more racist even than the average Yankee of his generation, and if not, he was certainly far more articulate in his racism. If you find that an insuperable problem—well, good luck reading Lovecraft.'

Source: "Tour de Lovecraft - The Tales"
 

Here is what Kenneth Hite has to say - a scholar whose opinion I trust, not the least because he is an RPG author as well

I haven't read that book. He was not so anti-Semitic later in life in that his wife was a Ukrainian Jew. What I find sort of funny is that works like The Call of Cthulhu or Shadows Over Innsmouth get quoted when there are far, far worse and direct examples.

I don't think I have heard of anyone, anywhere say HPL wasn't a racist. But where arguments do seem to come up quite often recently is if his racism makes him not worth reading, or somehow, someone who enjoys Lovecraft's fictional works should somehow feel guilty about it. Also, that some people bring it up for the sole purpose of belittling his works and aggrandizing their own world view. HPL is a real easy target for that.
 

Jürgen Hubert

First Post
I don't think I have heard of anyone, anywhere say HPL wasn't a racist. But where arguments do seem to come up quite often recently is if his racism makes him not worth reading, or somehow, someone who enjoys Lovecraft's fictional works should somehow feel guilty about it. Also, that some people bring it up for the sole purpose of belittling his works and aggrandizing their own world view. HPL is a real easy target for that.

That's not what I am saying at all, and neither does Kenneth Hite - he even wrote a role-playing game based on his works! (Trail of Cthulhu)

But neither is the racism something we should ignore when either discussing Lovecraft or his works.
 

That's not what I am saying at all, and neither does Kenneth Hite - he even wrote a role-playing game based on his works! (Trail of Cthulhu)

I didn't jump to any conclusion that you or he did.

But neither is the racism something we should ignore when either discussing Lovecraft or his works.

HPL's racism doesn't have to be a part of every conversation about his works. There are some people (and I am not accusing you of this) that seem to take a perverse pleasure of diverting any discussion of HPL's work in that direction however.
 

Bluenose

Adventurer
I have the T20 Blue Rose game. Leaving aside politics, the game is a good entry path into the hobby for a certain type of reader. For example, let's say you read The Hobbit or The Lord of Rings. D&D is the natural entry point for that branch of fantasy.

People who go to D&D thinking that it'll play anything like The Hobbit (and even more so LotR) are I suspect going to be very surprised at how very different it is. Possibly quite disappointed too. I'm not sure there's any type of fantasy novel which D&D does serve as a natural entry point for, except for some of it's own novels.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
That pretty much exposes this strain of historical literary criticism as incomplete (so much for those "true scholars and scientists"). It's impossible to divorce the creator from the context of the work and have a comprehensive context.

But, it is also possible to over-interpret, and push too much of what you know about the author into your thinking about the work, distorting the actuality.

There's a comedic songwriters, Tom Lehrer, who had noted, "When correctly viewed, *everything* is lewd. I can tell you things about Peter Pan, and the Wizard of Oz? There's a dirty old man!" Which here we can take as in an indication that if you are *looking* for something, you will find it. So, if you are looking for racism, you will find something you can interpret as racism. That doesn't mean that was the author's intent, or even the effect when a reader who isn't looking for it will receive.

So, what do you prefer - incomplete, or inaccurate?

Moreover, there is a major issue when we look at a historical figure, note his attitudes, and then analyze that by *today's* standards. That is leaving out a major context of the work - yes, HPL was racist. But so was most of his culture. Interpreting how "political" the work was requires we keep that in mind. Saying something that most of his culture already believes isn't much of a political statement.
 
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Celebrim

Legend
Interpreting how "political" the work was requires we keep that in mind. Saying something that most of his culture already believes isn't much of a political statement.

There is also the question of whether or not all statements are political statements. That is to say, through his fiction, was HP Lovecraft offering a political solution to the problem? Did HP Lovecraft think that the problems that he saw had a political solution at all? I fundamentally think HPL was wrestling with the fear not that his preferred political ideology would collapse, but that his 18th worldview had already collapsed and was collapsing under the weight of scientific discoveries that meant that that worldview was and always had been wrong, because it was based on a description of a world that didn't actually exist. It's within this framework I think we have to see his pronouncements, and within this framework the rise of (to his mind) mongrel races or communists was only a symptom of darker bleaker and to the educated person - inescapable truth. Scientific discovery would ultimately overturn all order, all rationality, and leave a picture of a universe which was counterintuitive to the rational ordered mind, meaning life itself and the Anglo-Saxon culture particularly could not be the rational ordered pinnacle of the universe he wished it to be.

There is a tendency in political circles and especially modern political circles to think that everything has a political solution of some sort. Indeed, there are some people for whom they feel everything is political, so that there is a very tight and one to one relationship between, "Things that are true.", and "Things which ought to be a matter of law." and perforce advocacy for taking a list of things that are true, a list of laws, and attempting to reconcile the two. And in fact, there is a school of thought which suggests this is the core of moral human behavior, and a person's ethics are revealed by how linked they see these two things and how much passion (at least) they have for this great reconciliation. It's something I see linking say socialists and libertarians - they both think that in the main, the problems they see could be fixed if only there was a reconciliation between truth and law.

To my reading, HPL wasn't making political statements. If I am correct regarding his philosophy, there could be no possible political solution any more than there could be any possible society or permanent place for humanity (particularly civilized humanity, as he saw it) once "the stars were right". He was making philosophical statements certainly, but I see no call to arms, no proscriptive formulas in his writings at all. There is racism there obviously, as there is racism in Howard (who he corresponded with), but at least in his fiction its a racism that is not easily classified according to any political system at all. HPL is in many ways reactionary even in 1776 - he opposed the Colonies revolting against the monarch. But that wasn't a normal feature of any political movement of his own day, and in other respects he has characteristics normally associated with 'liberal' ideology. HPL doesn't easily align with any block of people. He's not conforming to anything. He is fundamentally esoteric - 'wierd' to use another phrase. He's not even easily classified according to the usual divisions of his time, much less our time. What are we to make of a reactionary conservative who supports FDR and hates Woodrow Wilson, not because HPL's own political prescriptions differ markedly on much of anything from Wilson (both are aristocratic, educated, progressive on some matters, secular, racist, anglophiles), but because Wilson is in HPL's mine far too reticent in leaping to defend 'mother Britannia' from (to his mind) the mongrel barbarians that threaten it. Normal conservative politics of the day were high isolationist and busy yelling from the rooftops that Wilson was the anti-Christ for seeking against the guidance of the founding fathers to entangle the US in European wars! Nor does the atheist HPL whose best friend (so far as he had any) was a gay man easily fit into stereotypes regarding modern conservative thought.

And as I said, I don't believe that 'the right' and 'the left' actually even exist save as 'hats' for different tribes. The terms for me are far vaguer and less useful than D&D alignment (but come to think of it, I wonder if there is inverse correlation between how strongly someone believes alignment is meaningless, and how strongly they think 'left/right' is meaningful.)

Compare HPL with a contemporary political activist, say the late period writings of HG Wells, and you'll see a very marked difference in tone and style of the writing.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
There is also the question of whether or not all statements are political statements That is to say, through his fiction, was HP Lovecraft offering a political solution to the problem? .

Yes, that is part of what I'm talking about here. That he had a position does not mean he was actively advocating that position with every word.

I fundamentally think HPL was wrestling with the fear not that his preferred political ideology would collapse, but that his 18th worldview had already collapsed and was collapsing under the weight of scientific discoveries that meant that that worldview was and always had been wrong, because it was based on a description of a world that didn't actually exist.

I would even suggest that he was *subconsciously* wrestling with that, but that there was perhaps no necessary conscious, intentional connection between his personal beliefs and his work. Which is to say, as a racist, he'd have issues with miscegenation. But, as an author, he may not have been thinking, "Well, I don't like half-breeds, so I'm going to make some characters that represent that mixed blood, and make them terrifying, as an analogy."

And, beyond that, it is possible to come up with an image or theme in a work that is *not* related to your personal beliefs in its origin, that a reader will interpret *is* related to those beliefs. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, much as the imagery can be interpreted as otherwise.

And as I said, I don't believe that 'the right' and 'the left' actually even exist save as 'hats' for different tribes.

Meh. While I'm willing to discuss how much of a person's political beliefs are represented as an active part of this or her work, I'm not going to go into the theory here, beyond noting that I've seen some psychological theory that supports that they are more than just hats for tribes. More than that is real-world politics not appropriate for the open forum.
 

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