Bo9S - Alternative psionic mechanic?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Think very hard as to why allowing essentially unlimited spells or powers per day might be a bad thing considering the power of the spells and powers available.

..."And that is why I ban the Warlock in my games."



I think arcane swordsage could work, if it was fleshed out better. I mean, Duskblade is considered fine, and lots of other gish prestige classes are fine. If it simply got a bunch of spells as supernatural abilities (following how all maneuvers are Ex or Su), used the same recovery mechanics, etc... It'd only be as broken as the spell list it could choose from. The entry lists certain schools that it should be mainly focused around. It also says most should be personal or touch range. So, as a rough start...available spells are drawn from the sorc/wiz list and in all cases except for x schools of magic (probably evocation and 1-3 others, maybe in some cases only a subschool like conj. [summoning]), only personal or melee touch spells are allowed. I don't see why it couldn't be balanced, at least compared to a full caster or caster/warrior/PrC hybrid.

 

[Dandu]

..."And that is why I ban the Warlock in my games."

You know that the Warlock doesn't get toys nearly as broken as what the sorc/wiz spell list has.

Also, I bite my thumb at thee.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

You know that the Warlock doesn't get toys nearly as broken as what the sorc/wiz spell list has.

An arcane Swordsage doesn't have to get toys that broken, either. Warlock still gets invocations that mimic spells, in most cases, of a level that a straight classed sorc would be casting at around that point. They just didn't give them access to any of the really powerful spells. Saying "an arcane swordsage is broken if you let it take Polymorph" is the same as saying "Warlock is broken if you let it take Polymorph."

 

[irdeggman]

Psionics have built in "augmentation" so I would be very, very careful about attempting to insert them into a maneuver-based class.

Are they psi-like abilities or Su psionic ones?

The character now gains the psionic type which makes them eligible for psionic feats (which other classes can't get without spending a feat to become psionic) Some of those can be pretty useful.

The character also gets to use the power as if he had spent pp equal to his level (i.e., it has been augmented) - again this can be pretty powerful depending on what power it is.

Be really, really careful on inserting psionics in, especially if psionics aren't already part of the setting.

 

[Dandu]

An arcane Swordsage doesn't have to get toys that broken, either.

Warlocks don't; arcane swordsages don't have to. There's a difference.

 

[Runestar]

Saying "an arcane swordsage is broken if you let it take Polymorph" is the same as saying "Warlock is broken if you let it take Polymorph."

Warlocks can't because there aren't any invocations which mimic polymorph. Even if there were, it will likely be personal range, limiting its usefulness as the warlock can't use it on others.

A swordsage can take polymorph, and maintain it on the entire party since refreshing it is just a full-round action. PAO comes at lv15.

Even at 3rd lv, he can access alter self, or in the very least, select one of the stat-boosting spells such as bull's str, and cast it on both himself and other melee PCs such as the fighter, and again manage this every encounter. So you are possibly looking at the swordsage and fighter starting every fight with bull's str already up (and maybe at least 1-2 other longer-duration buffs like prot-from-alignment or protection from elements).

At lv7, you have stoneskin, and may even get to ignore the material components if you rule them to be SLAs or even SU abilities. Oh yes, and you can buff the entire party while you are at it too, and refresh it after every fight (assuming no components).

I am unsure of how tenser's transformation interacts with their existing maneuvers though.

And at lv17+, you get timestop and shapechange. Of course, what is stopping you from going timestop->whatever->refresh maneuvers->timestop->repeat?

Funny though, there seem to be a lot fewer personal/touch evocation spells than I remember. Most of the swordsage's spells seem to stem from transmutation, with the odd one from abjuration (such as shield and spell turning). This however, seems to limit its damage potential somewhat.

You thought the recharge magic variant was borked?

 

[Walking Dad]

In general, spells from the schools of abjuration, evocation, and transmutation are most appropriate for a swordsage of this type, especially spells with a range of personal or touch.

They said 'in general' for the suggested schools in the book and did not give any specifics.

So, an arcane swordsage with a custom (non-broken) spell list would be fine? As would be a psionic variant?

 

[Runestar]

So, an arcane swordsage with a custom (non-broken) spell list would be fine? As would be a psionic variant?

In theory.

In practice, I am not sure if what construes as a balanced spell list can ever be agreed on. There is still the issue of the swordsage's refresh mechanic, which I feel is one of the key contributors to him being so potentially game-breaking. So the spells will likely still be to be revised/modified somewhat.

For starters, you may want to rule that all buffs have a range of personal, even if it normally has a range of touch (eg: bull's str has a range of personal if taken by a swordsage), so he cannot buff the rest of the party.

I also noticed there seems to be a dearth of good touch spells for the swordsage. You might want to look into that as well.

 

[Glade Riven]

Buff spells/powers = boost maneuvers, with a limit of personal? Only one can then be active at a time on the character, and it solves the problem of players super-buffing before a fight.

As far as spell list, the Warmage spell list may work - many of those spells look to be the basis for a number of maneuvers as-is. That actually solves the buff/polymorph/summon/etc. jankyness. It does mean that technically a swordsage would be able to blast far more magic per-day than other casters, although I only see that as a problem if someone else is playing a caster, as that would prove unfair to them. If further limits are needed, I'd probably have the spells work like the spells of the Shadowcaster from Tome of Magic. It would probably underpower the swordsage as a caster, but since it is a hybrid-role class with a lot of skill points, I'd be fine with that.

On the psionics, the psychic warrior's power list appears to be much in the same vein. My thoughts is that since the power is cast as a maneuver, there are no points to spend to upgrade the power (although I havn't looked in Unearthed Arcana as yet on "casting powers as spells").

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

As far as spell list, the Warmage spell list may work - many of those spells look to be the basis for a number of maneuvers as-is. That actually solves the buff/polymorph/summon/etc. jankyness. It does mean that technically a swordsage would be able to blast far more magic per-day than other casters, although I only see that as a problem if someone else is playing a caster, as that would prove unfair to them.

Don't forget teleportation abilities. Swordsage actually gets a fair amount of those. The 3 shadow hand ones, the Leaping Flame counter, maybe more. Warmage list would be a good place to start, and is certainly the closest to what an arcane swordsage's final spell list might resemble.

I don't see the problem of being able to cast all day. If the majority of the swordsage's offense is hp damage spells (I'd allow some limited battlefield control and debuff in the list), unless he starts regularly doing more damage than a martial adept, barbarian, or power attacking fighter, it should be fine. Sorcerer and Focused Specialist Wizard get enough spell slots/day that by mid levels they can frequently cast all day, and they get much more spells known than the ~25 a Swordsage would get in 20 levels.