[Bo9S] Archery schools

[Nifft]

Celestial Rain

1st level

The weakest link
boost

You aim your arrows at the joints in your foe's armour, thus bypassing their protection.

Make a Spot check, with DC equal to your target's AC. If you succeed, you can bypass up to 2 points of armor/natural armor bonus to AC for 1 round.

Most adversaries will have either an armor or natural armor bonus, so I don't see a great need for this limitation, unless it works better against foes who have both?

2nd level

Rhythm of air
strike

You move with quick and graceful precision, loosing arrows with great speed.

With this strike, you can make 3 ranged attacks with a full-round action at your highest BAB. Both your attacks are made at a -4 penalty.

The penalty here does a lot to negate the benefit. I can see how it's an extension of Rapid Shot, but it seems inferior to the 1st level strike.

Field of quills

One of my favorites. Already discussed, but I'd like to reiterate that there's no need to make it a Strike. It can just be an untyped maneuver (like Iron Heart Surge or Shadow Jaunt).

Hidden thorn attack
boost

In the blink of an eye, you remove an arrow from its quiver and fit it to your bow.

As a swift action you gain an extra ranged attack, at a -2 penalty.

Cool. I like this way of getting extra attacks. Do you mean to say all attacks this round are at -2, or just this one attack?

3rd level

Indomitable archer's stance
stance

You stand and fire a seemingly endless stream of missiles, causing your enemies no end of grief.

While in this stance, you can conjure ammunition magically, as if from thin air. Each round, you can call forth up to 5 missiles of a type suited to your weapon; these are considered nonmagical for the purpose of penetrating DR, but are affected by antimagic. Your missiles disappear 1 round after you create them, whether you use them or not.

The maneuver is Supernatural? (IMHO it should be.) Interesting stance for an Assassin. Pretty strong compared to bolt, which is admittedly an odd duck.

You should spell out the specifics a bit more. Could a Monk get endless shuriken with this?

For some reason, I dislike this as a Stance. I feel this could be better implemented as a series of Boosts, which generated ammo of various qualities. I'll steal that idea immediately.

Unfurling steel blossom
strike

You fire a single arrow into the air, which separates and transforms in mid-air into a cloud of deadly projectiles.

As a standard action you attack all creatures in a 10' radius burst, within your first range increment. Make a single ranged attack, which is applied to all targets (friend or foe). This attack requires only one arrow.

See notes on area effect from Diamond Arrow above. Also, the level seems low for the potency.

Crimson arrow onslaught
strike

You attack in a blinding flurry, sending a flood of arrows at your targets.

As a full-round action, you make one ranged attack on all foes in a 30' cone. Unlike unfurling steel blossom, this requires one arrow per target, and you can choose not to target friendly creatures within the area of effect.

IMHO way too strong for 3rd level.

4th level

Manticore attack
strike

As a full-round action you can make 2 ranged attacks on each of 3 targets, at your full BAB. All targets have to be within a 60' cone starting from your position.

Interesting. I've been thinking of making some Strikes for my school which require Manyshot and allow you to make X attacks (for various X), but each attack must be at a different target. This looks good.

Unrelenting aim
boost

You track your foe, like a wolf stalking its prey. Despite his attempts to avoid your gaze, your arrows strike true.

Make a Spot check, with DC equal to your target's AC. If you succeed, your target is denied their Dex bonus to AC against your attacks for 1 round.

Might want to limit this to ranged attacks?

Giant-felling volley
strike

Your arrows form a deadly thicket, hindering and bleeding the life out of your enemy.

Make a full ranged attack on your target. If all your shots hit, your target takes a penalty to Strength equal to twice the number of shots you made, to a maximum of -10. You must hit with at least 3 shots to gain this benefit, which lasts for 4 rounds. A successful Fortitude save (DC 14 + Dex) negates the penalty.

Interesting mechanic. Might be better as a Boost which you can initiate during your full attack (like Fountain of Blood or Lion's Roar).

5th level

Perfected archer's stance
stance

While in this stance, you can treat your missile weapon as a melee weapon with 10' reach for the purpose of AoOs and threatening. Thus you do not provoke AoOs for making attacks, but you can gain AoOs on enemies within 10' of you. Any AoOs you make are still treated as ranged attacks for the purpose of calculating your attack roll.

Two benefits, one rather strong (threatening). Hmm.

Rebuke of the heavens
strike

Your arrows strike home like a great barrage, knocking your target down or forcing it to take cover.

Make a full ranged attack on your enemy. If all your shots hit, your target is knocked prone. You must hit with at least 3 shots to gain this benefit. A successful Reflex save (DC 15 + Dex) negates the effect.

Not bad, but I'm somehow troubled by Strikes that are just full attack plus. If the school is really focused on full attacks, I'd rather see it have fewer strikes and more boosts.

6th level

Breath of the celestial dragon
strike

As per crimson arrow onslaught, but affecting a 60' cone.

IMHO too strong.

Wrath of the earth dragon
strike

Your arrows multiply in mid-air and rain down on the earth, creating a forest of shafts. Seconds afterwards, the earth erupts in a blast of geomantic energy as the ki flow from your maneuver is released.

As a full-round action, you fire your arrows to create difficult terrain. You can affect up to 1 5' square/IL, using one arrow per square. 1 round later, the ground within the squares erupts in showers of earth and stone, dealing 10d6 points of bludgeoning damage to anyone in the area. A successful Reflex save (DC 16 + Dex) halves the damage.

That is a lot of damage, and it's not even the primary benefit. I take it the difficult terrain is permanent?

Do big critters who occupy multiple squares take the damage multiple times?

Can you target squares that are occupied?

7th level

Tempest of thorns
strike

Your arrows rain down on the battlefield, catching anyone beneath them in a hail of death.

As a full-round action, you can create a beaten zone as a 20' radius burst within your weapon's first range increment. Anyone who enters or is in the area is automatically subject to a ranged attack, at your full BAB. Creatures who were in the area during your turn are attacked at the start of their turn, while those entering the area afterwards are attacked at the moment they enter the are.

"Beaten zone"? So it's like hail storm in that it's a cylinder effect with a 1 round duration?

Greater manticore attack
strike

As per manticore attack, but you can make 3 attacks on each of 4 targets within a 120' cone.

Woah. 12 attacks total? That's really strong.

Arc of furious thunder
boost

You draw back and release your bowstring with blazing speed and power, sending arrows arcing on their way with tremendous energy.

As a free action, you choose a number up to your IL. You subtract this number as a penalty from your ranged attacks, and apply it as a bonus to your ranged damage. This lasts until the start of your next turn. You only gain the bonus to damage against targets within 30'.

Unless you're changing how Boosts work, it's not a free action.

Seems like you could have introduced this earlier, before IL was at least 13. With the built in limit, this could easily be a 1st level Boost that defines the PC's style.

8th level

Unquenchable fire stance
stance

You call forth bolts of flaming energy and send them to strike your enemies.

While in this stance, you can conjure ammunition magically. Your missiles are considered magical for the purpose of penetrating DR and striking incorporeal foes. In addition, each missile deals a bonus +1d6 points of fire damage. Each missile is consumed immediately on use, or after 1 round regardless.

Again, don't like this as a stance.

Unfurling heavenly blossom
strike

You fire a single arrow into the air. At the apex of its flight it multiplies into a cloud of deadly missiles, which rains doom on your foes.

As a standard action, you attack all creatures in a 30' radius burst within your weapon's first range increment. Make a single ranged attack, which is applied to all targets. Each hit deals double damage.

Level and damage seem spot-on, but the attack mechanic still bugs me. Reflex save seems to make more sense IMHO.

Adamantine arrow flare
boost

As a swift action you gain 3 extra attacks at your full BAB. Your attacks are made at a -0, -5 and -10 penalty for the 1st, 2nd and 3rd attack respectively. After using this maneuver, you are fatigued for the rest of encounter.

The language here is odd. I think it could be better phrased: "As a Swift action you gain three extra attacks, the first at your highest attack bonus, the second at -5 and the last at -10."

Also, I don't think it needs the fatigue.

Superb rending volley
strike

Make a full ranged attack on your target. If all your shots hit, your target takes 2 points of Str damage per shot. A successful Fortitude save halves the damage.

How does this interact with boosts like AAF? Do the arrows from the boost need to hit for you to gain the benefit, or just the arrows from the full attack?

Cheers, -- N

 

[hong]

Thanks, Nifft!

I don't like that this is the only stance available at 1st level, and yet it's useless until you get 2nd level maneuvers.

? It'll work fine with unbending arrow; you don't get double 2d6, but you still get double base damage. It's like Rapid Shot but without the -2, and better ability to penetrate DR.

Damage is low (compared to Rapid Shot); the stances seem required.

That's pretty much the idea. I might bump the +5 up a bit though. I'm also going to reduce the x3 damage from the 8th level stance to x2, as per your previous comments.

Swift true strike. Humm. Seems strong for this level. Perhaps a bonus that scaled with Initiator Level instead?

It basically means guaranteed damage. Without the ability to convert that +20 into damage (which is one reason why the ranged Power Attack in the other school is 7th level) the bonus isn't as potent as it might otherwise be. I'm all for synergies, but this one is a little too obvious to go unchecked, especially with the x2 stances. Maneuvers also generally seem to be designed so that they don't scale with level, unlike spells, so I'm following that convention.

An area attack with no saving throw, hmm. The mechanic is simple, but I'm not sure how balanced it is, since you could use an action point or a re-roll to effectively apply an attack to many foes. What about criticals?

I'm not too fussed about the area attack thing. A blast mage could do more damage, even with the saving throw, and a line is the least generally useful shape you can get. This strike is essentially there for you to showboat with, in fights that you'd probably win anyway. The critical is a good point: let's say you can't score crits or SA with this (or any of the other area-effect strikes).

4th level stances are rare. Is this targeted at a specific class or PrC progression?

No, but it's right in between the other stances, so it's a good place for it.

Cool. Anything fun happen if your attack roll was a crit?

No; should it?

This really looks like a Strike to me rather than a Boost. If it were a Strike, it'd be balanced without the need for a check.

Well, the school is already heavy on the strikes. Plus, I'm basically after a pattern: strike for damage, stance for multiplier effect, boost for special effect. The current division between boosts and strikes is rather haphazard; I could easily see emerald razor being a boost instead of a strike, for instance.[/quote]

Looks quite strong. Since it's a Counter, you could initiate it in response to a spell. Is your intent to negate the spells that would affect you during this maneuver's duration, or to simply suppress them?

The idea is for contingent mind blank, yes. It would suppress already-active effects; I'll add that to the description.

Minimum duration 0 or 1?

Minimum 0.

Cool. Might want to make this one a series, since incorporeal foes can crop up even among low CR undead. Or, if you keep the flat-footed and ranged-touch maneuvers as boosts, make the ghost touch thing a boost too.

Good idea.

Two very potent effects. Consider separating them into two stances with no drawback.

As said above, I'll be dropping this to x2 and rejigging the stances in general.

3rd level to 8th level, seems quite a difference in level for the range benefit. (Still don't like the single roll thing. The mechanic for the Iron Heart are attack seems better IMHO, where an attack roll sets the Reflex save DC.)

I'm not really a fan of that. You can easily get attack rolls way beyond the range of saves; upwards of 40 isn't too hard for my current AOW swordsage, and the twinked barb regularly hits 50+ if he doesn't Power Attack. The scales just don't match.

 

[hong]

Most adversaries will have either an armor or natural armor bonus, so I don't see a great need for this limitation, unless it works better against foes who have both?

Well, you never know when you're going to meet a monk or wraith. It's just a different way of giving out bonuses than yet another cover- or concealment-reducing effect.

The penalty here does a lot to negate the benefit. I can see how it's an extension of Rapid Shot, but it seems inferior to the 1st level strike.

I'll reduce it to -2.

Cool. I like this way of getting extra attacks. Do you mean to say all attacks this round are at -2, or just this one attack?

Just this one attack.

The maneuver is Supernatural? (IMHO it should be.) Interesting stance for an Assassin. Pretty strong compared to bolt, which is admittedly an odd duck.

Yeah, Supernatural. I haven't yet made the effort to label all the Su maneuvers.

You should spell out the specifics a bit more. Could a Monk get endless shuriken with this?

Don't see why not.... or darts, even if they're not technically ammunition.

See notes on area effect from Diamond Arrow above. Also, the level seems low for the potency.

I was thinking it's a bit weak, actually. 10' burst is smaller than a fireball, and you only do normal arrow damage (say 1d8+4 at 5th level, vs 5d6 for the fireball). Yeah, you'll kill a lot of orcs, but those orcs probably weren't a major threat anyway.

IMHO way too strong for 3rd level.

See above. 30' cone is maybe better than a 10' burst, but I doubt it's that much better. How about if I take out the ability to avoid hitting friendlies.

Might want to limit this to ranged attacks?

Well, I couldn't really think of a good reason why, if you've spotted a chink in someone's armour, you couldn't whack it with a sword as opposed to a bow. Think of it as synergy with the melee styles.

Interesting mechanic. Might be better as a Boost which you can initiate during your full attack (like Fountain of Blood or Lion's Roar).

Good idea.

Two benefits, one rather strong (threatening). Hmm.

I'd reduce it to 5' reach, but I'm not sure if it's really worth a 5th level stance then. IME archers almost never get hit with AoOs anyway, since they can just 5' step and shoot, or Tumble away and shoot.

Not bad, but I'm somehow troubled by Strikes that are just full attack plus. If the school is really focused on full attacks, I'd rather see it have fewer strikes and more boosts.

You make a good point, and it's also another way of differentiating this school from the other one (which is strike-heavy).

IMHO too strong.

See above comment about area-effect strikes. 1 attack per target, at 11th character level, might be 1d8+10; by this stage you've got cones of cold and flamestrikes flying around for 11d6 each.

That is a lot of damage, and it's not even the primary benefit. I take it the difficult terrain is permanent?

Do big critters who occupy multiple squares take the damage multiple times?

Can you target squares that are occupied?

Hmm, hadn't thought of these things. I'll think about it more.

"Beaten zone"? So it's like hail storm in that it's a cylinder effect with a 1 round duration?

Not quite a cylinder, more a general area effect like fireball that happens to persist for an entire round.

Woah. 12 attacks total? That's really strong.

I don't think so; 12 attacks all on one guy would be awesome, but 3 attacks on 4 guys not so much. I generally discount attacks that spread your damage among multiple foes, because 1) these foes usually aren't going to be that good anyway; 2) best practice in D&D is to concentrate your fire.

Unless you're changing how Boosts work, it's not a free action.

Seems like you could have introduced this earlier, before IL was at least 13. With the built in limit, this could easily be a 1st level Boost that defines the PC's style.

However, that leads to nastiness in conjunction with the other school....

How does this interact with boosts like AAF? Do the arrows from the boost need to hit for you to gain the benefit, or just the arrows from the full attack?

I would say that all attacks you make on the target have to hit, and all your attacks have to be on that target. I'll reword the description to make it clearer.

 

[Nifft]

Area effects...

I was thinking it's a bit weak, actually. 10' burst is smaller than a fireball, and you only do normal arrow damage (say 1d8+4 at 5th level, vs 5d6 for the fireball). Yeah, you'll kill a lot of orcs, but those orcs probably weren't a major threat anyway.

My thinking on area effects is always:
1/ Don't do it sooner than a Sorcerer and/or Warlock could; and
2/ Make fighters fear Swarms just a little.

Unlike a Sorcerer, you're not limited to 5 uses per day, so you can use this area attack to "plink" away at a more dangerous foe. Invisible or displaced foes are a problem -- area effects help solve this problem.

I don't like the "role leak". My rules are to only start giving area damage to non-mages when the mage's time is better spent doing something else.

Well, I couldn't really think of a good reason why, if you've spotted a chink in someone's armour, you couldn't whack it with a sword as opposed to a bow. Think of it as synergy with the melee styles.

Cool. Works for me. Also nice to justify why an archer can use some allegedly melee maneuvers.

See above comment about area-effect strikes. 1 attack per target, at 11th character level, might be 1d8+10; by this stage you've got cones of cold and flamestrikes flying around for 11d6 each.

Right, but remember:
- SR
- Evasion
- Energy Resistance (and every damn thing seems to have some energy resistance)
- Limited use

DR and AC compensate for less than half that list, I'd argue, since you can swap arrow head material (for DR) more easily than you can swap energy type (for energy resistance). Unlimited use vs. high damage means different* tactics, for sure, but I don't think we're talking merely 1d8+10. Energy damage is popular, flame arrow is available, and someone might even splurge and get a Collision enhanced bow.


*) And generally inferior. Winning in one round is half as dangerous as winning in two rounds. No argument there.

I don't think so; 12 attacks all on one guy would be awesome, but 3 attacks on 4 guys not so much. I generally discount attacks that spread your damage among multiple foes, because 1) these foes usually aren't going to be that good anyway; 2) best practice in D&D is to concentrate your fire.

I'd limit them to a specific number of attacks within the area. In the average case, this shouldn't change the power level, but it will prevent abuse. The number could rise with Initiator Level.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nifft]

Area attacks...

I'm not really a fan of that. You can easily get attack rolls way beyond the range of saves; upwards of 40 isn't too hard for my current AOW swordsage, and the twinked barb regularly hits 50+ if he doesn't Power Attack. The scales just don't match.

The more I think about this, the more I think you are right.

One attack roll against all targets means:
1/ Swarms are immune (eat it, fighter);
2/ Evasion need not apply; and
3/ Roll vs. resist scale is the same.

I don't like the idea of a critical hit, though -- and I don't like it being as effective as attacking without being an area effect. So, how about a penalty to the attack roll, and you don't ever crit -- you just deal normal damage?

Cheers, -- N

 

[hong]

Okay, after further revisions, I've put the 2nd draft on my web page. Don't feel like typing it all out again, so here's the links instead:

http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/diamond_arrow.htm
http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/celestial_rain.htm

 

[Nifft]

Any notes on specific changes to look at?

-- N

 

[hong]

I went back to x3 damage for the 8th level Diamond Arrow stance, but changed the 1st level one to let you reroll miss chances so it isn't entirely obsolete. The mid-level one now works like the others (FRA, lose Dex bonus to AC) but you add Wis to strike attack rolls stacking with Dex. Keeping pace with damage from iterative attacks is tough.

Reroll attack counter for Diamond Arrow is now 4th level (moment of fate). Rejigged a bunch of maneuver levels, actually.

New 2nd level Diamond Mind strike (spirit-felling shot) that lets you hit incorporeal creatures.

New counters for Celestial Rain that let you cleave at 1st level, give +20 vs sunder/disarm at 5th level. All up, there are now 4 maneuvers/level at all levels except 9th for both disciplines.

3rd level Celestial Rain stance now acts as ranged Power Attack with -/+5 cap, instead of generating arrows. Does not stack with 8th level boost, which is now -1/+2 PA, capped at -IL/+2xIL.

Field of quills now affects 8 squares, as does the higher-level version. Clarified how it works.

Tempest of thorns (beaten zone) now keeps going as long as you want, and you have arrows (10d6/rd). Affects a cylinder.

8th level Celestial Rain stance now creates arrows that bypass 5 points DR/hardness.

Area attack strikes are, by and large, unchanged. I doubt they'll steal a caster's thunder in the majority of situations. If they're weak enough to be killed instantly by unfurling steel blossom, there'll probably be enough of them that the wiz can still have fun with fireball.

 

[hong]

I don't like the idea of a critical hit, though -- and I don't like it being as effective as attacking without being an area effect. So, how about a penalty to the attack roll, and you don't ever crit -- you just deal normal damage?

Cheers, -- N

Hm, missed this. Already have the no-crit part; the penalty sounds good.

 

[Nifft]

Hm, missed this. Already have the no-crit part; the penalty sounds good.

With a high penalty (-4? -6?), the 3rd level one might be balanced.

Then, at a higher level, when full attacks could be up to five arrows at the same target, an area attack with no penalty might be balanced.

How's that sound?

Thanks, -- N