[Bo9S] Archery schools

[jasin]

Anyway. Constructive crits when my taxes are done. Would you mind peeking at Dancing Fox over in my thread? If you can't, no worries.

Good thing you mentioned that, I would have missed it otherwise!

 

[jasin]

However, you can use tears of heaven and JAF (or AAF) in the same round: +20/+15/+10 // +20/+15/+10/+5 // +20/+15/+10/+5.

Good point.

And you might as well add Rapid Shot, which any self-respecting machine-gun archer will have: +18/+13/+8 // +18/+18/+13/+8/+3 // +18/+13/+8/+3

(assuming Rapid Shot only gives one extra attack)

Hm. My interpretation would be +20/+15/+10 // +18/+18/+13/+8/+3 // +18/+18/+13/+8/+3. Two complete full attack actions, so two extra attacks from Rapid Shot, and the boost, which is pretty much an action of it's own, without any penalty. After all, you could AAF and cast a spell (or something), with no effect on AAF, so why not AAF and Rapid Shot (with not effect on AAF?

I think I like the delayed minefield best (wrath of the earth dragon).

Too obviously magical to by my favorite.

 

[hong]

Sorry for that. I'm not trying to be an ass, I'm just trying to think this stuff through, and do so out loud. When two smart & creative people disagree about something, then one of three things is true:
1/ One of us is wrong;
2/ Both of us are wrong;
3/ Both of us are right, because the margin for error is large enough to encompass both views.

No muss, no fuss.

I don't see any way to figure out which condition holds other than discussing specifics. Your assertion ("more damage now is better") is both true and vacuous -- these high-level maneuvers aren't free, they're the pinnacle class feature of a dude who's supposed to stand up and not be ashamed next to a Cleric and/or a Druid.

Given the ease with which an archer can pull off a full attack, and the commonness of Rapid Shot, I think that the sort of defense used against archers is going to be different than the defense against melee guys. There are spells that straight up negate archery (wind wall, but anything that affects wind speed can do the trick), and since you can't Power Attack or abuse Stormguard Warrior (Combat Rhythm), DR is going to be a bigger issue for an archer than for a melee guy.

Anyway. IMHO the maneuver TSS is weaker if restricted to archery than it would be if it were restricted to melee, and IMHO it's worth taking four non-melee specific Diamond Mind maneuvers even if you are playing an archer with few available maneuvers, if TSS is your goal. (Also, I wanted to find currently unexploited archery-compatible maneuvers, so the build was useful in that regard.)

I don't see what you're trying to argue here. I also don't see what's "true but vacuous" about my assertion, which was basically there to refute the suggestion that getting 2 full attacks at once wasn't useful.

When you come down to it, what I'm saying is this:

1) Time stands still is very good for archery, even if it were restricted to that alone (ie, no melee attacks).
2) It's still very good for archery, even if you then nerf it with additional backlash-type drawbacks.

In a way, you're agreeing with the first point yourself. You're willing to cherry-pick Diamond Mind maneuvers just to get TST for an archer, despite the bulk of the school being oriented to melee. That tells me, if TST was taken out of Diamond Mind and put in its own archery-specific school, you'd definitely be willing to take it (even if it was ranged-only, since, hey, you're an archer).

I think the point of disagreement is over the further nerfing with daze+fatigue. Are you saying that this nerf makes TST no longer worthwhile, even if it was in its own archery-specific school? That an archer would just go straight to Diamond Mind for the better version, forgoing the other maneuvers in the Celestial Rain school?

I can certainly see that if an archer had access to both the Diamond Mind _and_ Celestial Rain schools, then they would choose the original TST over the nerfed version. I'm not sure how relevant this is, though.

Please do update with your experience. I think that a Warblade would get more use out of this particular maneuver -- many attacks favor those who can add damage to all of them, with stuff like Power Attack, Stormguard Warrior, Weapon Specialization and Melee Weapon Mastery. The best combos I've seen were with Tiger Claw / Diamond Mind builds, I think, using Raging Mongoose and the TWF chain to get really quite a lot of attacks.

A ftr4/(archer something)16 could also get Weapon Spec and Ranged Weapon Mastery, and Rapid Shot is a lot more common among archers than TWF is among tanks.

And yes, I fully agree with your earlier assertion that it's much easier for archers to full attack every round than for tanks. This means that rewards for making full attacks should be smaller for archers than for tanks. Which is why tears of heaven is not quite as good as time stands still, although still pretty awesome.

 

[hong]

DNB is x4 damage, right? So the benefit of the strike is +120-150 damage, with your normal damage being 40-50.

Average 25 normally, plus another 20 from Power Attacking for -10. For most opponents, this is still anywhere from a 2 to 10 needed to hit on the d20 roll. And this is with a swordsage (BAB +15 maximum) with Str not that high by 20th level standards (22); for a twinked warblade, it gets even better.

Yes, this considered, it would seem that SoPC's +100 isn't all that. SoPC doesn't require a concentration check, but then, how often do you fail that with DNB?

The Concentration check isn't the problem, modulo freaks like Dragotha (AC 58).

This is only tangentially related, but does raging mongoose suffer from TWF penalties? It says you get two attacks with each weapon, and your highest attack bonus. Is that supposed to implicitly include TWF penalties? My first guess was yes, but after reading wolf fang strike (attack with two weapons as a standard action at -2) I'm not so sure, because that one seems to include a "TWF penalty". And if stuff like mithral tornado can pretty much obviate the need for Whirlwind Attack, maybe Tiger Claw is supposed to do the same for TWF...?

I don't see why raging mongoose would have penalties. If you have haste, you get an extra attack without a penalty, and in fact you get a +1 bonus.

Hm. My interpretation would be +20/+15/+10 // +18/+18/+13/+8/+3 // +18/+18/+13/+8/+3. Two complete full attack actions, so two extra attacks from Rapid Shot, and the boost, which is pretty much an action of it's own, without any penalty.

Hyp pointed out that TWF grants one extra attack _per round_, with the proviso that you need to full attack to use it. Rapid Shot uses similar language. By contrast, haste grants an extra attack on a full attack action, with no reference to attacks per round.

It's all too complicated....

 

[Crashy75]

Time stands still with ranged attacks???? *looks it up* Oh yeah. It just says, "make two full round attacks". Nope. Wouldn't allow it. I would guess that that was a mistake. With that in mind I think Hong's version is fine. The ranged version shouldn't be as good as the melee version because range is that much better.

 

[Nifft]

In a way, you're agreeing with the first point yourself. You're willing to cherry-pick Diamond Mind maneuvers just to get TST for an archer, despite the bulk of the school being oriented to melee. That tells me, if TST was taken out of Diamond Mind and put in its own archery-specific school, you'd definitely be willing to take it (even if it was ranged-only, since, hey, you're an archer).

Honestly, I'm not sure that I would. I just wanted to see if someone wanted that maneuver, could he get it without needing to take any melee-specific maneuvers or stances? And it seems he could.

I think the point of disagreement is over the further nerfing with daze+fatigue.

That's exactly right. I agree that it's strong, but I don't think it's worth losing a round's worth of actions, or taking a penalty for the rest of the encounter.

IMHO, appropriate nerfs would be limited to the round in which you initiate -- you could be flat-footed for that round, or you could take a -6 penalty to AC, or something like that. Internally balanced, like a Charge action, rather than "pay-on-credit" like a Wild Surge.

However, I think I prefer your mechanic of just giving a fixed number of extra attacks. TSS can be its own unique thing over in Diamond Mind; no need to port it to archery, since it already works with archery just fine. Giving the machine gun archer three or four extra attacks at full BAB (or all with a -2 penalty) would be about the same, but far less controversial.

I can certainly see that if an archer had access to both the Diamond Mind _and_ Celestial Rain schools, then they would choose the original TST over the nerfed version. I'm not sure how relevant this is, though.

If they've got access to Diamond Arrow, Diamond Mind and Celestial Arrow, then they'd be crazy not to exploit some of the key skill synergy between DM and DA.

But that's probably even less relevant.

Cheers, -- N

 

[hong]

Honestly, I'm not sure that I would. I just wanted to see if someone wanted that maneuver, could he get it without needing to take any melee-specific maneuvers or stances? And it seems he could.

Humour me. IF you were a specialist archer, would you take something like time stands still for archery, assuming there were no strings attached (no non-archery maneuvers needed, no weird drawbacks, etc)? I think so.

That's exactly right. I agree that it's strong, but I don't think it's worth losing a round's worth of actions, or taking a penalty for the rest of the encounter.

IMHO, appropriate nerfs would be limited to the round in which you initiate -- you could be flat-footed for that round, or you could take a -6 penalty to AC, or something like that. Internally balanced, like a Charge action, rather than "pay-on-credit" like a Wild Surge.

I think what we've got here is a clash of paradigms. As written, D&D basically doesn't do much to encourage ramping-up of combat intensity. You're just as well off opening with your best attack, as anything else. In fact, you're encouraged to open with your best attack, since that may well kill the other guy before they can hit back.

I don't like this, and I've posted before about how to fix it. Options included powerful one-use defenses (to soak up the one-use attacks), and powerful offenses with lingering drawbacks (so you're encouraged to use them only when you believe they'll end a fight, rather than immediately). Some of the ToB maneuvers are a bit like this: eg finishing move, in Iron Heart. You could also argue barbarian rage is like this, although the duration is usually long enough that the fatigue doesn't matter.

Tears of heaven follows in the same vein. IMO it's powerful enough that it could well decide a fight on its own, so rather than have the fight over before it's really got started, I encourage the archer to use it only when they're sure of the kill. Which in practice may just mean on the second round instead of the first, but that's still a net gain.

And as I said before, I'm choosing to ignore the fact that time stands still works with ranged attacks. Hell, if anything I'd nerf TST the same way as tears of heaven.

If they've got access to Diamond Arrow, Diamond Mind and Celestial Arrow, then they'd be crazy not to exploit some of the key skill synergy between DM and DA.

The point is, no class currently gives access to all of Diamond Mind, Diamond Arrow and Celestial Rain. And any specialist archer who is actually meant for play, as opposed to proving a point, has far better classes to choose from than warblade and swordsage.

 

[jasin]

Hyp pointed out that TWF grants one extra attack _per round_, with the proviso that you need to full attack to use it. Rapid Shot uses similar language. By contrast, haste grants an extra attack on a full attack action, with no reference to attacks per round.

I think he's being needlessly nitpicky. If I have no problem with a greatsword-wielding Power Attacking warblade doubling his offense with TSS, I have no problem with a TWF warblade doubling his offense with TSS, rather than just adding another full attack action which cannot be TWF because TWF only adds another attack per round and not per full attack action.

 

[Nifft]

Diamond Arrow

1st level

Darkwood arrow stance
stance

You empty your mind of distractions and concentration on the task at hand. Your arrows fly straight and true to their target.

All Diamond Arrow strikes that you perform while in this stance deal double damage. As per the usual rules for multiplying damage, flat bonuses are multiplied but bonus dice are not. While in this stance, you lose your Dex bonus to AC.

I don't like that this is the only stance available at 1st level, and yet it's useless until you get 2nd level maneuvers.

Unbending arrow
strike

You make a single ranged attack, which gains a bonus +2d6 points of damage.

Seems fine, except for missing synergy with stance (above).

Keen sense of the archer
boost

Choose a target. You can ignore its cover bonus to AC if any, and reroll any concealment miss chance that may apply.

Nice, and not that powerful.

Blindfire strike
boost

If a ranged attack of yours misses, you can reroll the attack. You gain this benefit only on one ranged attack, which must be made before the start of your next turn.

Check out the wording on Lightning Recovery (Iron Heart).

2nd level

emerald initiate's attack
strike

You make a single ranged attack, which gains a bonus +5 points of damage. Note that this is multiplied if you are in any of the Diamond Arrow stances.

Damage is low (compared to Rapid Shot); the stances seem required.

Pierce the shadows
boost

You gain a +20 insight bonus to your next ranged attack, ignore concealment miss chance. You must make the attack before the start of your next turn to gain this benefit.

Swift true strike. Humm. Seems strong for this level. Perhaps a bonus that scaled with Initiator Level instead?

3rd level

Confound the blade
strike

Your precisely-aimed shot sends your foe's weapon flying.

You can make a disarm attempt on an enemy at range. This follows the normal rules for disarming, but you use your ranged attack roll instead of a melee attack roll. You gain the +4 bonus for using a 2-handed weapon.

"You make one ranged attack as part of this maneuver...blah blah Disarm blah. If you fail, your target cannot attempt to disarm you, because that would be silly."

Sapphire spirit shot
strike

You make a single ranged attack, which gains a bonus +10 points of damage.

Fine, but still weak, and usually there's at least one level between such similar maneuvers.

Eye of the archon
boost

You reach out with your mind, confounding your foe's attempts to dodge your aim.

Make a Concentration check, opposed by your target's Sense Motive check. If you win, your target loses their Dex bonus to AC against your next attack, if it is made before the start of your next turn.

Improved Swift Feint at range. Hmm. You don't like the existing Concentration check DC = AC mechanic of the Diamond Mind stuff? A lot of targets aren't going to have Sense Motive checks worth a damn.

Shot of perfection
strike

With a single arrow, you cut a swathe through your enemies.

You attack all creatures in a 60' line starting from your square. Make a single ranged attack roll, which is then applied to all your targets.

An area attack with no saving throw, hmm. The mechanic is simple, but I'm not sure how balanced it is, since you could use an action point or a re-roll to effectively apply an attack to many foes. What about criticals?

4th level

Iron arrow stance
stance

With but a minimum of effort, you send your arrows into the hearts of your enemies.

While in this stance, all Diamond Arrow strikes deal double damage, and require only a standard action to complete (instead of a full-round action). You do not lose your Dex bonus to AC.

4th level stances are rare. Is this targeted at a specific class or PrC progression?

Striking the heart
strike

Your shot strikes with deadly precision. Make an attack roll; if you hit, your attack is automatically considered a critical threat.

Cool. Anything fun happen if your attack roll was a crit?

5th level

Golem-smashing shot
boost

You can sense the critical weak points in a foe.

Make a Concentration check, opposed by your target's Sense Motive check. If you succeed, your next Diamond Arrow strike ignores its DR and hardness, if any. You must make your attack before the start of your next turn to gain this benefit.

This really looks like a Strike to me rather than a Boost. If it were a Strike, it'd be balanced without the need for a check.

Transcendent mind
counter

Your devotion to truth and enlightenment turns away those who would influence your mind.

You gain immunity to all mind-affecting effects for 1 round.

Looks quite strong. Since it's a Counter, you could initiate it in response to a spell. Is your intent to negate the spells that would affect you during this maneuver's duration, or to simply suppress them?

6th level

Smite the mountain
boost

Armour and scaly hide is no barrier to you. You reach out with your mind, finding the weak points in your foe's protection.

Make a Concentration check opposed by your target's Sense Motive check. If you succeed, your next Diamond Arrow strike can be made as a ranged touch attack. YOu must make your attack before the start of your next turn to gain this benefit.

Cool, but looks like a Strike to me.

Diamond surge
strike

Make a single ranged attack. If you hit, you gain a bonus +5d6 points of damage, and your target is staggered 1d4 rounds. A successful Will save (DC 16 + Wis mod) halves the duration, but not the bonus damage.

Minimum duration 0 or 1?

7th level

Ghost-cleaving shot
strike

The wraith shrieks with rage and pain as your arrow tears into its ghostly form, leaving fragments in its wake.

You make a single ranged attack, which is considered a force effect (ie, it has the ability to hit and damage an ethereal or incorporeal target). If you hit, you gain a bonus +5d6 points of damage. Note that you gain no special ability to detect such foes.

Cool. Might want to make this one a series, since incorporeal foes can crop up even among low CR undead. Or, if you keep the flat-footed and ranged-touch maneuvers as boosts, make the ghost touch thing a boost too.

8th level

Mithral arrow stance
stance

All Diamond Arrow strikes deal triple damage, and you may reroll any miss chances due to concealment. You lose your Dex bonus to AC while in this stance.

Two very potent effects. Consider separating them into two stances with no drawback.

Unstoppable solar's bolt
strike

Your arrow transforms into a mighty bolt of geomantic energy, clearing a path through your enemies.

You attack all creatures in a 120' line starting from your square. Make a single ranged attack roll, which is applied to all your targets.

3rd level to 8th level, seems quite a difference in level for the range benefit. (Still don't like the single roll thing. The mechanic for the Iron Heart are attack seems better IMHO, where an attack roll sets the Reflex save DC.)

9th level

Shot of destiny inevitable
strike

You make a single ranged attack, which gains a bonus +50 points of damage. In addition, if you hit, your foe takes 2d4 points of Dexterity damage. A successful Fortitude save (DC 19 + Wis mod) halves the Dex damage, but not the hit point damage. If you score a critical hit, the Dex damage becomes permanent ability drain.

Good, moves up to very good if you expect the +50 to be multiplied by 2 or 3. The dexterity drain is (potentially) nasty!

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nifft]

I think he's being needlessly nitpicky. If I have no problem with a greatsword-wielding Power Attacking warblade doubling his offense with TSS, I have no problem with a TWF warblade doubling his offense with TSS, rather than just adding another full attack action which cannot be TWF because TWF only adds another attack per round and not per full attack action.

Probably. It was posted in the nitpicky forum after all.

Two full-attack actions in one round wasn't a common situation when the Core rules were written, so "per round" vs. "per full-attack action" didn't previously need disambiguation.

Cheers, -- N